Ball Four

[satchel]

Okay, so I am a little behind the times, but I've just started Jim Bouton's "Ball Four". This book has received three decades of hype so I guess I was expecting it to be a bit more shocking than it is. I'm trying to imagine reading it in context in 1970, in order to appreciate the depth of the revelation, to understand why it was met with such anger and denial. Still, it's an enjoyable read. Bouton has a great voice and a knack for pacing and storytelling. I like the interweaving of stories from his past with the progress (if you can call it that) of the Pilots' season. Even with all the water under the baseball bridge since its controversial introduction, "Ball Four" is worth reading.

[Skip]

Sad to say I've never gotten around to reading Ball Four and have wondered how it holds up today. It'll be interesting to see what others here have to say about it.

[SmedIndy]

It's a great book. Some of the characters and antecdotes are hysterical. But it's lost some of its controversial impact. It's still a quite worthy read, and you can breeze through it.

There are some classic lines uttered by some of the characters.

My fave is Joe Schultz' "Hiya, blondie! How's the old tomato?"

[Xanadu Dragon]

Must have read it 25 years ago. Christ, I am old.

Enjoyed it then. I could see where it would have no shock value now 'tho.

[satchel]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
It's a great book. Some of the characters and antecdotes are hysterical. But it's lost some of its controversial impact. It's still a quite worthy read, and you can breeze through it.

There are some classic lines uttered by some of the characters.

Yeah, although Bouton himself can be pretty funny too. I was rolling on the floor at the discussion of being hit in the cup with a baseball: "when a baseball hits one, it's called ringing the bell, which rhymes with hell, which is what it hurts like. It's funny, even if you're in the outfield, or in the dugout, no matter how far away, when a guy gets it in the cup you can hear it. Ding dong."

I'm still only in spring training. Fun book.

[Duque]

Did Bouton really pen the words, or was it ghost-written for him?

[sweaver]

Lenny Schecter did the ghosting, but used a lot of Bouton's words. The shock value was really in being the first to "pull back the curtain," as it were, on how major leaguers act. Girl chasing, stupidity, heavy drinking, that sort of thing.

[TGwynn19]

I read it about 3-4 ago and I too could not understand why the Yankees would not invite him to old-timers day. I guess in that late 1990's most people knew Mickey was an alcoholic and chased women. But in 1970 it was shocking. I loved the Phil Linz harmonica story. It had to be quite entertaining to have Mickey Mantle on your team with Yogi Berra as your manager.

[Old Judge]

I read Ball Four in '71 and became a big Bouton fan. I think the book is unique (despite scads of imitators) because of the time it was written. There was a lot of turmoil in the American culture in 1969, and Bouton was a young man living 'the All-American dream' and trying to come to grips with Viet Nam, the Hippie movement, the Civil Rights movement, etc., and at the same time seeing the blemishes of the baseball 'heros'. The book also immortalized the one-year-only Seattle Pilots! I have read it several times over the years and will always have my copy on the shelf.

A side story: After the end of the '73 season, when the Yankees began the renovation of the stadium, my father and I went down to pick up some seats. It turned out the clubhouse was open
to sell off miscellaneous garbage to 14-year old kids like me who would want it. There wasn't much left when I got there, but I rummaged through old letterhead, etc., looking for treasure.
As I was doing this, I happened to look across the room and see Jim Bouton and his wife(?) disappearing through a metal door. I walked over to the guard at the door and asked if it was Bouton and where he was going. He said it was him, and the door led to the walkway to the dugout. He said Bouton wanted to get a last look at the field as it was. I grabbed a Yankee envelope and he lent me a pen and my father and I waited there for Bouton to emerge. Now we come to the good part:

After a few minutes, the guard looked around the room, gave me a conspiratorial wink, and pushed Dad and me through the door, closing it quickly behind us. There I stood in the home clubhouse runway at Yankee Stadium, baby! And the light at the end of the tunnel was the field of dreams!

We walked toward the light, and as I approached the dugout, my most vivid memory is of a urinal just behind the dugout wall. It was stained with what could have been... Mickey Mantle piss! Hey, who's to say? Anyway, I found myself standing in the dugout. The stadium was quiet, except for a few construction guys way out in the bleachers somewhere. It was a perfect Indian Summer day and the facades glistened in the sunlight. I hopped up the steps and walked toward the diamond. Let me pause here to say that if you can walk onto the field at Yankee Stadium (even empty) and look up into the stands and NOT hear the roar of the crowd in your head, then you have no soul and I don't want to know you. Sorry...no offense...that's just how I feel.

Anyway, I ran around the bases, and slid into home. Then I remembered why I was out there. Bouton was standing between the plate and the on-deck circle. As I approached him from the side, I could see a little melancholy in his eyes as he scanned to upper deck (I think he was hearing the roar too). I paused a little until he noticed me, then asked for his autograph. He had to clear his throat to say 'Sure' and signed graciously, but with the kind of smile you exchange with someone at a funeral. I could tell at that moment he was recapturing the feeling of Mickey Mantle laying out the red carpet after his first win, and not thinking of what a jerk Dan Topping was. That day, Jim Bouton was a Yankee again; or wanted to be.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Awesome story Judge. :thumb:

What a thrill - - I'm green, head to toe, right now.

[Old Judge]

Thanks, Xan.

[pathogan]

I read it in hardcover[ a big deal for a 12 year old] in 1970...Boy, it was the first of its kind[though Jim Brosnan had done differently but well in THE LONG SEASON} The Mantle stories, The pepitone stories[who knew they were both so sick,in retrospect].I re-read it about 6 years ago,and though dated in parts, it was funny, and poignant...though I am quite certain that Joe Torre does not care for it very much...

[satchel]

I just finished it. It took a while - I put it down for a few weeks when I got busy with some school things, but I finished it during spring break.

It's a great book; I recommend it to everyone who hasn't read it already. Bouton tells some great stories and it's fascinating to get the peek inside the clubhouse, especially for someone like me who has never played at any level.

But it's mostly a book about Bouton, a fact he seems to acknowledge with an intensely personal epilogue that I found almost uncomfortable to read at times. (I have the 1990 edition, with both "Ball Five" and "Ball Six" addenda.) He is a wonderful protagonist, likeable and flawed, and for me it was the personal interest in Bouton himself, even more than the baseball stories, that made the book so special.

Did anyone ever make a movie of this book? He mentioned the ill-fated TV show. I think a movie - about a Bouton-like character, but with all the fun anecdotes surrounding his story - would really work.

[satchel]

And I almost forgot -- Bouton invented Big League Chew! :shockbig:

[pathogan]

Originally posted by satchel
And I almost forgot -- Bouton invented Big League Chew! :shockbig:

and those baseball cards for little leaguers with their pictures on them...

[KCBOOMER]

Very poignant story, Judge.:bawl:

[Fuzzy Bear]

I remember reading "Ball Four" as a hippie teenager in the 1970s. Ballplayers were bound by the reserve clause then; the union wasn't what it is today. Society was not as permissive as it is today, but full-scale rebellion against established mores was going on. (The 1972 Series of the "hairy" A's vs the clean-cut Reds took on real significance.)

The real moral of Bouton's book is "If you don't want your wife to read about you commiting adultery, don't commit adultery." Today, of course, nothing is private. The clubhouse used to be, in the minds of old-timers.

However, in a bigger Book than Bouton's it was written that "what is done in the darkness will be brought to the light". Those who preach the sanctity of the clubhouse have been fighting a losing battle for a lot longer than since Bouton hit the bookshelves.

[hmrsf]

Judge that is the coolest thing I have ever read. The Soxs won't let anyone touch the sacred grass. Not ordinary people like me. I did stand on the Expo turf and it just felt odd. Sitting in the dugout was cool until someone yelled at me in French.

I hope some day to stand in Fenway and touch the wall. Imagine. WOW!!!!I am happy you had the moment!

[bill wisnosky]

I've read the books many years ago.....I did like Ball Four in its day.....I read also a few years ago "Behind the Mask".......Sad, but true, hard on the old pastime game......I always wondered who the 2nd baseman was or is, that Dave Palone was referring to in the book...........Hmmmmm

[richie17]

Hi folks, just found the forum, looks great. Ball Four's a classic, no doubt. I'm an Englishman and a few years ago discovered baseball - the best way to do this was through books, and at first I read everything I could find, gradually building a better and better picture of the game (I'd only ever seen games on tv then). Anyway, Ball Four was quite simply hilarious, quickly became my favourite, and I've read it probably 5 times now. It's also informative in its own way. I've just lent it to a friend of mine who isn't interested in baseball... interesting to see if he likes it.

Has anyone read the sequal? I think the local post office has a copy waiting for me tomorrow...

cheers
Rich

[Fritz Buelow]

richie17 - welcome!
Great to have someone from the other side of the pond!

[sweaver]

Hey, Richie, you spelled "favorite" wrong.;)

Another round of pints over here, barkeep!
:beer:

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by richie17
Has anyone read the sequal? I think the local post office has a copy waiting for me tomorrow...

cheers
Rich

Do you mean "I'm Glad You Didn't Take It Personally". It's got some good stuff in it too. the letters are funny.

Barkeep, another Guiness? Or do you perfer Watney's?

[gyb13]

Richie - good to have you here mate....finally another foreigner who can spell aluminium :D

[richie17]

ha! cheers for the reception fellas - have a good easter

:cheers:

[pwdennis]

I think that the very first baseball book I read, other than the usual fluffy biographies found in school libraries was PENNANT RACE by Jim Brosnan, a very earthy book but extremely well written. Later when I read BALL FOUR, I viewed it as a logical extension of PENNANT RACE, only not nearly as well written, and given to cheap humor. I suspect the reason that PENNANT RACE did not receive the acclaim and notoriety of BALL FOUR was that it was written about the 1961 Cincinnati Reds rather than about a New York or Los Angeles team. Moreover, Brosnan faced repercussions for his writing activities, probably more so than Bouton, who was already over-the hill at the time BALL FOUR was written.

I have re-read both books with the last five years and my view of BALL FOUR remains the same. I enjoyed the book but it was neither the ground breaker it was touted as being nor was it the best written book of its type

[WiredTiger]

I just finished reading Ball Four and I really enjoyed it. I am sure that a lot of adults' image of Mickey Mantle was never the same.

It was a very good read and had lots of interesting tidbits. I could see why some of the guys didn't like him after that.

The funniest part was the length that ball players would go to just to do some "Beaver shooting". Can you imagine ARod up on a roof trying to peek in a window? I just can't see it.