Who's the Best 1B of All-Time? (NDF Contest - 1B)

[Duque]

If you need a refresher on the rules, you can find them here:

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2...=&threadid=1252

This thread is for debate and discussion on the players selected by each team as a 1st Baseman. It's open not only to the contestants themselves, but also to any other forum members wishing to weigh in. Voting is to take place in a separate thread. We'll rotate once per week, so we'll conclude the discussion and voting for this position on Saturday, 1/26/02.

Here's the 1st Basemen selected in the draft:

Mexicani Blue - Keith Hernandez
HMRSF - Eddie Murray
b-ball-lunachik - Johnny Mize
redsox617 - Willie Stargell
ChrisCary - George Sisler
Throwback - Hank Greenberg
Duque - Bill Terry
Yogi#8Fan - Willie McCovey
GoldenBear - Jimmie Foxx
BuzzBuzzard - Jeff Bagwell
pjl7 - Will Clark
nyy26wc - Lou Gehrig
Xanadu Dragon - Rafael Palmeiro

[Xanadu Dragon]

On behalf of Rafael Palmeiro - - -

CAREER 1B

HOMERUNS
1 Mark McGwire 580
2 Jimmie Foxx 521
3 Lou Gehrig 493
4 Willie McCovey 439
5 Fred McGriff 428
6 Eddie Murray 414
7 Norm Cash 377
8 Rafael Palmeiro 375
9 Gil Hodges 369

HR/100 OUTS
1 Jimmie Foxx 9.71
2 Lou Gehrig 8.98
3 Willie McCovey 8.21
4 Fred McGriff 7.53
5 Rafael Palmeiro 7.16
6 Gil Hodges 6.90

OPS
1 Lou Gehrig 1.080
2 Jimmie Foxx 1.044
3 Fred McGriff .897
4 Willie McCovey .893
5 Rafael Palmeiro .889
6 Will Clark .880

OWP
1 Lou Gehrig .797
2 Jimmie Foxx .746
3 Willie McCovey .707
4 Will Clark .679
5 Cap Anson .677
6 Eddie Murray .663
7 Fred McGriff .662
8 Rafael Palmeiro .658
9 Keith Hernandez .651

And, don't forget to consider his Gold Glove Play when voting - - - thank you!

[Golden Bear]

On behalf of Jimmie Foxx - - -

CAREER 1B

HOMERUNS
1 Mark McGwire 580
2 Jimmie Foxx 521
3 Lou Gehrig 493
4 Willie McCovey 439
5 Fred McGriff 428
6 Eddie Murray 414
7 Norm Cash 377
8 Rafael Palmeiro 375
9 Gil Hodges 369

HR/100 OUTS
1 Jimmie Foxx 9.71
2 Lou Gehrig 8.98
3 Willie McCovey 8.21
4 Fred McGriff 7.53
5 Rafael Palmeiro 7.16
6 Gil Hodges 6.90

OPS
1 Lou Gehrig 1.080
2 Jimmie Foxx 1.044
3 Fred McGriff .897
4 Willie McCovey .893
5 Rafael Palmeiro .889
6 Will Clark .880

OWP
1 Lou Gehrig .797
2 Jimmie Foxx .746
3 Willie McCovey .707
4 Will Clark .679
5 Cap Anson .677
6 Eddie Murray .663
7 Fred McGriff .662
8 Rafael Palmeiro .658
9 Keith Hernandez .651

I'm poaching off of XD's work, obviously, but Foxx is #1 or #2 in all categories!

Foxx and Gehrig are a clear #1 and #2 (order is debatable), and #3 is a long way behind.

[Duque]

Bill Terry was one of the best pure hitters and outstanding defensive 1st basemen of his time. He batted over .310 for 10 consecutive seasons, winning his leagues batting title in 1930 with a .401 average, and finishing in the top ten 8 times. His career .341 average is the 15th best of all-time, and he also owns an impressive .393 career OBP to go along with a 899 career OPS, both marks among the top 100 all-time.

According to Netshrine.com and other sources, Terry was the best defensive 1st baseman of his era, with a career .992 fielding % and a 10.82 Range Factor (nearly a full point above the league average of 9.94).

Terry was one of SABR's 100 greatest players, ranked #78, and made the Sporting News top 100 of all-time at #59.

[Duque]

Originally posted by Golden Bear

Foxx and Gehrig are a clear #1 and #2 (order is debatable), and #3 is a long way behind.

Apparently not for XD! :D
I think he's giving the Iron Horse short shrift.

[Duque]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon

CAREER 1B

OPS
1 Lou Gehrig 1.080
2 Jimmie Foxx 1.044
3 Fred McGriff .897
4 Willie McCovey .893
5 Rafael Palmeiro .889
6 Will Clark .880


Just a quick question - where's Greenberg (1.022 OPS), McGwire (.982 OPS), Jeff Bagwell (.969 OPS), Johnny Mize (.959 OPS), Bill Terry (899 OPS) on the list?

[hmrsf]

My switch hitting 1b, Eddie Murray, is one of 3 players with 500+ hr (504)and 3000+ hits (3255). The other two players are Willie Mayes and Hank Aaron.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Just a quick question - where's Greenberg (1.022 OPS), McGwire (.982 OPS), Jeff Bagwell (.969 OPS), Johnny Mize (.959 OPS), Bill Terry (899 OPS) on the list?

I think I used 8000 PA as a cut off - - - they didn't make it.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Apparently not for XD!
I think he's giving the Iron Horse short shrift.

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Johnny Mize
3. Lou Gehrig

If it were just on hitting, I would take Lou over all - - but, that would be like taking Piazza over Bench - - ignoring that defense counts towards greatness as well.

In terms of fielding, IMHO, Foxx was three times the better fielder than Gehrig. Mize was also a better fielder than Gehrig - - 'tho not at the rate as great as Foxx. Also, it terms of hitting, I'm giving Mize some slack for missing 43-44-45 due to the war when he was in his prime.

The top three in this group are close, and, as it is my choice/vote, I choose to go in this order.

[Duque]

I can understand your ranking - the top 3 are indeed close.

I'm trying to find a good way of evaluating defense for a lot of the pre-1950 players. Most of the stuff is just anecdotal - teammates saying "so and so saves hundreds of runs with his glove, etc," and managers claiming their guy is the best gloveman in the league. These aren't exactly objective evaluations.

Same problem with looking at Fielding % and Range Factor - both have serious drawbacks in evaluating defense.

[Duque]

Something else you wonder by looking at those charts on OPS/OWP etc - do Fred McGriff and Palmeiro suffer from playing in such an offensive era? They are, right now, borderline HOF material by most accounts.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Fielding % and Range, to some extent, for 1Bs are almost useless.

For my call, I used Fielding Runs. This is a LW version of how many runs a player saved beyond an avg player at that position. For 1B, it doesn't factor in gimmies like POs and DP.

If I remember right, Foxx was +30, Mize was -14, and Gehrig was -60.

[Golden Bear]

Honestly, I had no idea about all of this.

I'd always just assumed Gehrig was a good fielder, becasue I'd never heard anything adverse, and he was such a good overall athlete (the streak, the hitting, Columbia, etc.).

Methodologically, I'm always leery of taking a derived statistic like Fielding Runs simply as a given; I like to see it verified by another measure, or at least by some sort of observational assessment.

(I know I'm questioning info that benefits me here, so please give me credit for intellectual honesty.)

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
Honestly, I had no idea about all of this.

I'd always just assumed Gehrig was a good fielder, becasue I'd never heard anything adverse, and he was such a good overall athlete (the streak, the hitting, Columbia, etc.).

Methodologically, I'm always leery of taking a derived statistic like Fielding Runs simply as a given; I like to see it verified by another measure, or at least by some sort of observational assessment.


In "Mitts, A Celebration of Fielding" by William Curran, page 125:

"Apparently, when Lou Gehrig reached the majors in 1925, his glove was more of a threat to the Yankees fortunes than his bat was to the opposition's."

He later added that, through hours of work, he became at best, a competent and steady 1B. BTW, Curran notes in the book that he did see the Iron Horse play in the 1930's.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
I think I used 8000 PA as a cut off - - - they didn't make it. Bagwell is just more than one season away from 8000. Can't imagine he's going to slip far. Got to figure he's going to bounce someone from the top 5 you listed.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Bagwell is just more than one season away from 8000. Can't imagine he's going to slip far. Got to figure he's going to bounce someone from the top 5 you listed.

Too bad for him we're voting now and not next year. ;)

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon


Too bad for him we're voting now and not next year. ;) Or change the criteria of your query to 9700 PAs:D

[Golden Bear]

I'm learning something here...are there stories of Foxx's prowess in the field?

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Golden Bear
I'm learning something here...are there stories of Foxx's prowess in the field?

I always learn stuff here - - that's what makes this all worth while!

Foxx moved around some besides just his 1900+ games at 1B. He caught 108 games, played 141 at third, 21 in the OF, even had 1 at SS and pitched 10 games. Was he good at any of those? Well, probably not - or else he wouldn't have played 1919 at 1B. But, the fact that we was able to attempt those, probably meant he was not a statue in the field.

[hmrsf]

Murray hit 504 HR not 414 as originally posted. Are GB and XD dissing Eddie?

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by hmrsf
Are GB and XD dissing Eddie?

Nah, Foxx.

[hmrsf]

Why do your lists short change Murray? Am I reading funny books, can they all be wrong, help me out?

[Golden Bear]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon


Nah, Foxx.

We're discussing Foxx, not dissing him...at least I'm not.

[Golden Bear]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon


I always learn stuff here - - that's what makes this all worth while!

Foxx moved around some besides just his 1900+ games at 1B. He caught 108 games, played 141 at third, 21 in the OF, even had 1 at SS and pitched 10 games. Was he good at any of those? Well, probably not - or else he wouldn't have played 1919 at 1B. But, the fact that we was able to attempt those, probably meant he was not a statue in the field.

I know Foxx started out as a catcher, but was moved to first because the A's had Mickey Cochrane at C. There's no shame in being a worse fielder than Cochrane; he may have been OK at C.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by hmrsf
Why do your lists short change Murray? Am I reading funny books, can they all be wrong, help me out?

Steady Eddie is number four on my ballot - - see the thread - - - I'm not short changing him.

[hmrsf]

Home runs by 1b.....you have him listed as 414, instead of 504. To me that is short changed by say 100+.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by hmrsf
Home runs by 1b.....you have him listed as 414, instead of 504. To me that is short changed by say 100+.

Now I got it! Those are HRs as a 1B - - some of Murray's also came as a DH.

[hmrsf]

OHHHHHHHHHHH!!! That is a very missleading stat. I knew I was just not getting it. Thanks for clearing it up!

[Throwback]

From the Hall of Fame Website:
"Despite losing four prime seasons to World War II and another to a fractured wrist, Hank Greenberg still walloped 331 home runs, including 40 or more in six seasons. His peak year was 1938 when the slugging right-hander hit 58 homers after driving in 183 runs the year before. On the last day of the 1945 season, the fearsome slugger's ninth inning grand slam won the pennant for the Tigers. A two-time MVP, he closed out his career in Pittsburgh, shooting at Forbes Field's 'Greenberg Gardens.' "

Hank Greenberg is the poor man's Ted Williams. He dealt with a great deal of obscurity throughout his career and still proved to be one of the greatest ever. He was comparable to Jimmy Foxx in his era. When Greenberg joined the military in World War II, he didn't do it just for show and as a poster boy for the war effort as some celebrities did. He rose to become a captain and commanded a B-29 squadron and returned home a war hero, despite the fact that being over 28 exempted him from service.

This, from the Detroit News:
He led the American League with 63 doubles in 1934, in 1935 he led the league with 36 homers and 170 RBI, he finished with 183 RBI in 1937, 58 homers and 144 RBI in 1938, and 41 homers, 50 doubles and 150 RBI in 1940.

He hit 331 home runs over his career and batted in 1,276 runs. He holds the Tigers' record for most doubles in a season (63 in 1934); most home runs (58 in 1938); most home runs in home stadium (39 in 1938); most runs batted-in in a season (183 in 1937) and most total bases in a season (397 in 1937).

His 58 homers in 1938 fell 2 short of the record (at that time) of Babe Ruth's 60. One fan complained with frustration, "they used to walk him, because they knew he was gunning for the fences. Boy, did that make me mad. He could have broke the record if they hadn't walked him so much." Greenberg played the 1947 season with the Pittsburgh Pirates, who paid him the then-incredible salary of $100,000. He retired as an active player at the end of the season.


Greenberg played in four World Series with the Tigers (1934, 1935, 1940 and 1945) and played on four American League All-Star Teams (1937, 1938, 1939 and 1940).

He was voted the American League's Most Valuable Player in 1935 at first base and 1940 in left field -- the first player to win the award at two different positions. In 1956 he was named to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

In 1983 the Detroit Tigers held a special ceremony to retire the uniform numbers of Hank Greenberg (No. 5) and Charlie Gehringer (No. 2).

Hank's days with the Tigers were over after the 1946 season. Even though he was just back from four years in the service, he again led the American League with 44 homers and 127 RBI. He was sold to the Pittsburgh Pirates in 1947 where his appreciative new owners reportedly paid him the then incredible one-year salary of $100,000 and renamed their left field stands "Greenberg Gardens," in anticipation of his home runs. But Greenberg was near the end of his productive career and he knew it. He retired as an active player after the 1947 season to become a baseball executive.

Greenberg died of cancer in 1986 at the age of 75. He was eulogized in a Detroit News editorial: "He gave selflessly to any number of individuals and causes, without issuing self-aggrandizing press releases. If you don't believe that, just watch. Praise will flow from places you never considered: from entertainers, politicians, tennis players, celebrities, groundskeepers, restaurant owners, sportswriters, baseball fans. Indeed, three days after his death, you can still walk onto crowded streets, or into places where sports fans congregate and hear people telling stories ('Do you remember...?') and sighing ('...that was a great man.') Can you think of a finer tribute?' "

[Duque]

I saw the Hank Greenberg documentary at the video store the other night, and was tempted to rent it - I've heard it's really good.

I'm having trouble evaluating Sisler - sure, he was a hit machine, but not much power or walks. Although he was probably the fastest 1B in this contest.

[Duque]

Another note on Bill Terry - his HR totals were never really high, but he did have a very good career SLG % of .506. That's because, while he could pull the ball, he preferred going the opposite way and driving a lot of pitches to the deep alleys in the Polo Grounds, generating a lot of doubles and triples, back when doubles and triples were still a power stat (nowadays triples are more reflective of speed). And he still holds the modern NL record for career BA by a lefthanded batter.

[Duque]

Some more rankings to toss out there:

SABR's 100 Greatest Baseball Players

2. Lou Gehrig
14. Jimmie Foxx
35. Hank Greenberg
55. George Sisler
62. Willie McCovey
78. Bill Terry
82. Eddie Murray
87. Johnny Mize
93. Willie Stargell

The Sporting News 100 Greatest Baseball Players

6. Lou Gehrig
15. Jimmie Foxx
33. George Sisler
37. Hank Greenberg
56. Willie McCovey
59. Bill Terry
77. Eddie Murray
81. Willie Stargell

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque

SABR's 100 Greatest Baseball Players



:loud: The biggest joke in the history of baseball fandom. Pull-ease.

[Duque]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon


:loud: The biggest joke in the history of baseball fandom. Pull-ease.

That bad?

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
That bad?

I thought so: http://www.netshrine.com/sabr100.html

[pjl7]

The only thing I can think of that's more embarassing would be to allege that some guy from an offensively inflated era like say Palmiero was among the best first basemen of all time. Makes me want to quit my job and go hit 20 homers in half a season just to show how unimpressive it is these days.

[b-ball-lunachik]

A few words on Johnny "The Big Cat" Mize:

-- Mize was a true home run threat, hit for a high average and seldom struck out....a rare combination. He's the only man to hit 50 homeruns in a season while fanning less than 50 times.

-- Mize hit three home runs in a game a record six times.

-- He homered at least once in all 15 of the major league parks in use during his career.

-- After having surgery on both hips while in the minor leagues, was a Hypothetical ROY award winner according to Total Baseball for the '36 Cardinals :

Batting: .329, .577 SLG, .402 OBA and .979 OPS

-- Lost three years in his prime to the war. Give the vet a break. ;)

-- Per Netshrine's gallery, only Ted Williams hit more home runs in the 40s than Mize.

-- This 10 time All Star and HOF finished in the Top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, including second place twice, and won the batting title batting .349 in 1939.

-- Got his "Big Cat" nickname for how he handled bad hops at first base, and later for his graceful stance at the plate and the way he avoided brushback pitches.

-- Even later in his playing career after being curtailed by injuries, he was still an extremely clutch player. He drove in 179 runs as a Yankee on only 230 hits.

He had a pinch hit single in the 9th inning of Game 3 in the 1949 World Series that won the game for the Yankees.

And in the 1952 World Series, he hit a pinch hit homerun in Game 3, hit another dinger in Game 4 which won the game for the Yanks in a shutout, and hit a three-run homer in Game 5 marking the first player to homer in three consecutive World Series Games. In Game 7, his single drove in the first run in the 4-2 Yankee win. He batted .400 in that Series which was a year before he retired.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by pjl7
Makes me want to quit my job and go hit 20 homers in half a season just to show how unimpressive it is these days.

It's really not THAT easy. ;)

[hmrsf]

Where does Murray rank?

He is one of six players to have 1500 RBI over 16 years.(Hank Aaron, Stan Musial, Wille Mayes, Ernie Banks and Mike Schmidt.)

He collected 75+ RBI in a record 20 consecutive seasons.

Holds the Major league record with 11 games with switch hit home runs.

Murray is one of only three players to have 500+ HR and 3000+ Hits (the others are Hank Aaron and Willie Mayes.)

He ranks number two in Grand Slams with 19.

Most hits as a 1b 11,336. (#11 of all players of all time.)

Most doubles as a 1b 560, (#16 of all players all time.)

Most total bases by a 1b 5,397

Most 1b asst with 1,865.

Most game winning RBI 117, while it was kept as an offical STAT.

3 GG, 1977 ROY, Siver Slugger award 8x all star,(6x consecuatively) 8x top 10 MVP 6x top 5MVP.

******on April 21,1994 hit hr from both sides of the plate 11x breaking Mantles record.**************

[Duque]

Originally posted by hmrsf

He collected 75+ HR in a record 20 consecutive seasons.

Holds the Major league record with 11 switch hit home runs.


Okay, I might have just been reading this wrong - do you mean 75 HRs in 20 seasons, or 75+ RBI in 20 consecutive seasons?

And, I'm guessing it's 11 games with HRs from both sides of the plate, because I am sure Mickey Mantle hit more than 11 switch-hit home runs ;)

[hmrsf]

Originally posted by Duque


Okay, I might have just been reading this wrong - do you mean 75 HRs in 20 seasons, or 75+ RBI in 20 consecutive seasons?

And, I'm guessing it's 11 games with HRs from both sides of the plate, because I am sure Mickey Mantle hit more than 11 switch-hit home runs ;)

Duque you are right.....me bad fingers, again!!! Thanks for picking that up!!

[Duque]

Hopefully better than SABR's list, here's the top 100 RCAA for all players. Only the 1st Basemen are indicated:

4. Lou Gehrig - 1247
14. Jimmie Foxx - 985
30. Johnny Mize - 667
33. Jeff Bagwell - 617
34. Willie McCovey - 614
43. Willie Stargell - 557
46. Hank Greenberg - 549
53. Rafael Palmeiro - 507
59. Eddie Murray - 496
63. Will Clark - 479
79. Bill Terry - 425

[Yogi#8Fan]

Willie Lee McCovey (Stretch)
21½ seasons, SFG; ½ season, OAK.
Elected to Hall of Fame by BBWAA: 1986 (346 votes of 425 ballots cast: 81.41%)
Bats: L; Throws: L.

Awards:

1959 NL ROY
1969 ML-AS MVP
1969 NL-MVP

Best Year:

1969 – Career-high BA, .320; #1 NL OBP, .453; #1 NL SLG, .656; #1 NL OPS, 1.108; #1 NL HR's, 45, #1 NL RBI, 126; #2 NL BB's, 121; #2 NL EBH, 73.

All-Star Games: 1963, 1966, 1968-71

Leads and Top 10s:

MVP – 1965, 1968-70
BA – 1968, 1969
OBP – 1965-70, 1973 (1x #1)
SLG – 1963, 1965-70, 1973 (3x #1)
OPS – 1963, 1965-70, 1973 (3x #1)
Total Bases – 1963, 1968-70
Doubles – 1970
HR's – 1963, 1965-70, 1973-75 (3x #1)
RBI – 1963, 1966-70 (2x #1)
BB – 1964-70, 1973-74 (1x #1)
EBH – 1963, 1965-70

Career Offense:

HR – 521 (tied with Ted Williams at 3rd for LH hitters (behind Barry & Reggie), #4 at 1B with 439)
Grand Slams – 18
Hits – 2,211
2B – 353
3B – 46
RBI – 1,555 (#9 at 1B with 1,345)
BB – 1,345 (#4 at 1B with 1,202)
SO – 1,550
BA – .270
OBP – .374
SLG – .515
OPS – .889 (#9 at 1B with .893)
RC – 1,636 (#13 at 1B with 1,421; POS AVG: 1,183)
RC/G – 7.06 (#11 at 1B with 7.17; POS AVG: 5.10)

Career Defense:

Putouts – 17,170
Assists – 1,222
Errors – 233
Double Plays – 1,405
Fielding % – .987

[Duque]

I was torn between picking Terry and Mattingly (sort of a latter-day Terry). Maybe I should've taken Donnie and gotten the 12 points from ChrisCary's 1st place vote.

[Yogi#8Fan]

I'd have given Donnie good props also, but which real Yankee (or otherwise) fan would vote for him over Gehrig?

[Duque]

I'll readily concede Terry isn't the best 1st Baseman, heck, he's probably not even among the top 6. But below Keith Hernandez?

Now I know how Fergie Jenkins feels.