Dorrel Norman Elvert "Whitey" Herzog

[Crash Course]

He managed in the major leagues from 1973 to 1990.

[nyy26wc]

No.

Managerial records are the exact same thing as pitcher's "win"-"loss" records. In the manager's case, instead of being who pitched the preceding half inning before someone else got a GWRBI, it's who managed.

[KCBOOMER]

I don't do managers. It's all about the horses.

[crazydiamond]

Lee, while I agree with you, obviously some managers are better and would deserve more recognition than others
What managers, in your opinion, would be considered some of the best managers ever?

[nyy26wc]

Lee, while I agree with you, obviously some managers are better and would deserve more recognition than others
What managers, in your opinion, would be considered some of the best managers ever?

Pick any random set of managers and they have just as much claim to it as any other random set of managers.

[mainsr]

I voted yes because Herzog as a manager made contributions to the game. His run-in with Templeton was a sentinel event in manager/player relations, I think--it drew the line in a way a psychotic like Martin couldn't draw one. And Herzog helped shape a ballclub to both his ballpark (turf park favoring fast guys) and the era (the 80's were a deader era, offensively, than the ones preceding and following it).

[crazydiamond]

so then you would say managers like Connie Mack and Casey Stengel were just as good as Luis Pujols and Carlos Tosca?

[mainsr]

so then you would say managers like Connie Mack and Casey Stengel were just as good as Luis Pujols and Carlos Tosca?

Lee, I assume that one's for you, buddy.

[nyy26wc]

so then you would say managers like Connie Mack and Casey Stengel were just as good as Luis Pujols and Carlos Tosca?

Sure.

Look at how stupid Connie Mack and Casey Stengel were when they didn't have the talent.

And look at how "brilliant" "stupid" managers like Stengel and Torre became when they got the players. If Pujols and Tosca had the players, then your question would be "so then you would say managers like Luis Pujols and Carlos Tosca were just as good as [pick any "dumb" managers]?"

[captain_napalm]

I voted yes because Herzog as a manager made contributions to the game. His run-in with Templeton was a sentinel event in manager/player relations, I think--it drew the line in a way a psychotic like Martin couldn't draw one.

Don't forget the Keith Hernandez trade.

[mainsr]

Don't forget the Keith Hernandez trade.

Outstanding point.

[YankeeLinks]

Managers should be eligible. Some of them are certainly memorable. I just don't put Whitey that high on the list

[mainsr]

so then you would say managers like Connie Mack and Casey Stengel were just as good as Luis Pujols and Carlos Tosca?

Don't let Lee scare you off, man. He's a really sharp analyst but the thing about managers is one of his more idiosyncratic views (several of which, like pitchers' wins and losses are meaningless, I agree with).

My $0.02 is that the role of the managers is generally overblown, but a few managers have made a difference, whether through personnel management (especially pitching staff management), lineup selection or, in the case of guys like Mack and Herzog who also had player selection/development roles, roster construction. I think the roles of guys like Torre who are applauded for "managing all the egos in the dugout" is overstated.

[LisaG]

the question is not would joe torre lose with the 03 tigers or any drays team

if you have a team with only crappy players you will lose a LOT

but i think that the question is do some guys manage the same team better than other guys?

and i think so

take a look at billy martin - every team he ever managed improved greatly with just about the same players after he took over

but i think billy is in a class by himself

so i'm really not real too impressed by whitey

[crazydiamond]

eh, Lee doesn't scare me anymore
maybe he did at first, like 4 years ago when I first subscribed to the ATM reports, but then I got used to him

[perrya]

Didn't both the Royals and Cards have a lot of drug problems when Whitey was in charge?

[LoveTheGame]

I thought that was why he made the Hernandez deal. He learned Keith was doing coke and thought he was a cancer in the clubhouse.