Labor Day Situation At Y.S. [Archive] - NetShrine Discussion Forum

Crash Course

09-05-2004, 04:38 PM

TB plays a DH at NY on Monday.
TB has yet to get to NY because of HF.
TB had a chance to leave FLA on Friday - as the Tigers did, when the DET @ TB series was called because of HF.
But, TB elected not to leave, but to stay in FLA, even with the forecast, etc.

There's some talk that if TB does not show for the DH at YS on Monday (at 1 PM) that the Yankees should be credited with two 9-0 wins.

Think that will really happen?

captain_napalm

09-05-2004, 10:29 PM

Given what's going on in FL? Yeah, I'd say so

I'm typing this from Hilton Head Island, SC. We're getting nonstop coverage here. Don't know if it has been mentioned or not, but there's a third hurricane approaching. We haven't been affected much, outside of some showers and high winds

Crash Course

09-05-2004, 11:29 PM

FWIW, Yanks, at the request of the commish, have moved the start of game 1 from 1 PM to 3 PM, to allow TB some more time to get to NY. Funny, the report I heard said that TB was also requested (by Bud?) to leave on Friday to eliminate travel issues, and they ignored the request.

This could be interesting - esp. if NY ends up finishing in 1st by 1 game or 2 games and those games were wins assisted by TB's refusal and the weather.

RichG

09-06-2004, 10:05 AM

1. I think it's nice the Devil Ray players were able to stay with their families during the threat of the hurricane. I hope that was the reason they stayed around, not to save hotel fees in NY.

2. I think it's nice of the Yankees to push back the starting time of the first game

3. I hope not too many Yankee fans are inconvenienced with the change in starting time.

Ytown Tribe fan

09-06-2004, 10:17 AM

Frances was downgraded to a TS by the time it hit TB. No EVAC was required. While the delay in ETD is unfortunate, it was up to the discretion of the D-Rays whether to am-scray or not. The games will be made up at a DTBD.

IE, TS NY, UR SOL.

Crash Course

09-06-2004, 12:07 PM

I doubt that they will be played at a DTBD. It's go time today, or, Bud has a tough call.

Crash Course

09-06-2004, 12:23 PM

the latest:

Devil Rays Can't Get Out of Florida

By RONALD BLUM
.c The Associated Press

NEW YORK (AP) - The Tampa Bay Devil Rays remained in Florida on Monday morning, just 3 1/2 hours before they were scheduled to play a doubleheader opener in New York against the Yankees.

The Devil Rays, whose Saturday and Sunday home games against Detroit were postponed by Hurricane Frances, were still on the ground, having difficulty flying out of Florida.

Devil Rays general manager Chuck LaMar said at 11:40 a.m. that the team, which arrived at Tropicana Field at 8 a.m., was still at the ballpark.

Katy Feeney, the vice president in the commissioner's office in charge of scheduling, said discussions on how to handle the situation were ongoing.

``The commissioner's office is still trying to make a decision,'' Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said at noon.

Monday's doubleheader originally was scheduled to start at 1 p.m., then was pushed back on Sunday to 3 p.m.

``We had planned on being here all day anyway,'' Yankees captain Derek Jeter said. ``I don't see how we could play two games today now.''

The Yankees had urged the Devil Rays to leave Florida on Friday night or Saturday, before the storm caused airports to close.

It was unclear whether a failure by Tampa Bay to arrive by the scheduled start time would cause Major League Baseball to declare one or both games forfeits.

``Let's get a grill,'' Yankees pitcher Mike Mussina said. ``Hot dogs and burgers on the field.''

The Yankees were scheduled to report to Yankee Stadium at noon for the doubleheader.

Ytown Tribe fan

09-06-2004, 04:55 PM

That is a tough call for Kenesaw Molehill.

Is there precedent for a team no-show, and if so, what was the reason and result?

The only thing TB has on its side right now, is that "officially" they didn't have to evacuate. But they certainly could have expected to be delayed, and I would put the blame on this situation clearly on the D-Rays.

I would forfeit one game and see if the other could be made up.

Crash Course

09-06-2004, 05:07 PM

Looks like they are getting a pass on missing the 1st game. Let's see if they can make it by 7 PM.

Those poor fans that showed up to the park at 1 PM today!

pathogan

09-06-2004, 07:25 PM

Looks like they are getting a pass on missing the 1st game. Let's see if they can make it by 7 PM.

Those poor fans that showed up to the park at 1 PM today!

...thats whoIm thinking about, the guy who works then saves his dough to bring his kids there, on a gorgeous NY day,for nothing...This is a lose lose for everyone involved... :( :rolleyes: :mad:

nyy26wc

09-06-2004, 09:16 PM

Rule 4.17--" A game shall be forfeited to the opposing team when a team is unable or refuses to place nine players on the field."

The Devil Rays had the opportunity to get to NY to able to play a doubleheader, by their own actions, failed to do so and therefore were "unable ... to place nine players on the field" in order to play 2 games. Therefore, if baseball rules mean anything, 1 of the games must be forfeited.

The counterargument to this is MLB's clear pattern of establishing that the rules don't mean anything. And with the way MLB treats rules, I have to find the counterargument to be the more effective one.

hopbitters

09-06-2004, 10:07 PM

...thats whoIm thinking about, the guy who works then saves his dough to bring his kids there, on a gorgeous NY day,for nothing...This is a lose lose for everyone involved... :( :rolleyes: :mad:

It sounded like they were giving out free hot dogs and soda all day to those to who showed up as well as an extra set of tickets. Besides, just being at YS is better than going to work, school, etc. It's like a bad day of fishing...

Crash Course

09-06-2004, 10:43 PM

The NYY did everything they could for the fans - - - free hot dogs and Coke drinks, a free ticket to any game between now and 9/5/05, and, reportedly, a gift (on top of the DVD giveway that today was) on the way out of the Stadium.

Still, if you thought it was a 1 PM game, that's a looooong day at the ballpark.

What really stinks about this to me - - to Lee's point on the rule. If this was TB vs. the KC Royals today, instead of the Yankees, I would bet dollars to donuts that the forfeit is made by MLB.

Stein, Cashman, and Randy Levine (the latter NY's version of Laughing Larry in Beantown) should threaten to take this puppy to court, if needed.

Just another case where a rule is a rule unless it helps the Yankees.

mainsr

09-07-2004, 04:19 AM

What really stinks about this to me - - to Lee's point on the rule. If this was TB vs. the KC Royals today, instead of the Yankees, I would bet dollars to donuts that the forfeit is made by MLB.

Stein, Cashman, and Randy Levine (the latter NY's version of Laughing Larry in Beantown) should threaten to take this puppy to court, if needed.

Just another case where a rule is a rule unless it helps the Yankees.

Oh fer cryin out loud. Yeah, the deck's stacked against the Yankees. That's why they've never won their division.

There is a case to be made here on TB's behalf. Not a strong one, or one that I'd advance, but one nonetheless; it isn't like they didn't fly out earlier because they were all sleeping off a bender or going to a Bucs game.

They are going to "take this puppy to court" on what grounds? That the team should've been required to leave their families iin the face of a killer hurricane? Yeah, that would certainly change people's minds about the Yankees. That fans had to sit at the ballpark on a beautiful day and consume free dogs and cokes? How about when fans are forced to sit in the rain for four hours, paying for their dogs and cokes, until a game is called? Do the Yankees sue themselves then, or the umpires in the case of a rain delay?

A regularly-scheduled game got postponed. That's not exactuly an unheard-of occurrence. Here is my dollars-to-donuts prediction:
1. If it has a bearing on the standings come the end of the season, it will be replayed.
2. If it doesn't have a bearing on the standings come the end of the season, it will not.

Note that this complex decision rule works for TB vs. NY, TB vs. KC, or all the Cubs-Marlins games that were called over the weekend. (Sue the bastards!)

My decision rule isn't as satisfying as an anti-Yankee conspiracy theory, I realize, but it does have the merit of being true.

As I said in an earlier post, come Yom Kippur, you Yankee fans have a lot of atoning for whining to do. (But bring your radios into the temple--with earphones, please--so you can still listen to the Red Sox series. Wouldn't want you suing the rabbi.)

mainsr

09-07-2004, 04:25 AM

Rule 4.17--" A game shall be forfeited to the opposing team when a team is unable or refuses to place nine players on the field."

I know this is an intent vs. letter argument, which isn't airtight, but the forfeit rule is designed for situations where a team either refuses to play or when it suffers so many injuries that nine guys can't take the field. Yesterday's situation arguably wasn't the former, and certainly wasn't the latter. If the Yankees were to appeal, they'd have to do it on the basis of the refuse clause, not the unable clause, or we'd set a precedent for forfeits whenever there are ATC delays.

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 08:01 AM

mainsr - do we know for a fact how many TB players have homes, and their families are there, in the TB area? I know that Sweet Lou and Tino Martinez are there - no question. Don Zimmer too.

But, do you think Upton lives there? His family? He's 20 years old. WHat about Rocco? Crawford? Lugo? Randall Simon?

If I were a betting man, I would wager that two-thirds of the TB players - being so young, and many not from the US - rent places in TB to play the season and either do not have families of their own, or the families live elsewhere.

So, for the majority of the team, the excuse of "leaving their families iin the face of a killer hurricane" is moot, in my mind.

Truth be told, I think this is all about the penny-pinching owner of the Rays not wanting to spring for hotels in NYC for the entire team for 3 extra days. But, that's just my opinion. Can't say it's a fact.

RascalJones

09-07-2004, 09:21 AM

That said, the visiting team usually gets part of the gate from a series to help offset travel/lodging expenses. Would the Yanks have given up more of their gate to help with the cost of "3 extra days"?

Ytown Tribe fan

09-07-2004, 09:21 AM

Maybe the D-Rays liked their odds against Hurricane Frances better than against Hurricane George.

What about other players who live there, like Sheffield? Did the Yanks give him leave to go home and be with his family?

What about players in other areas that are hit by flooding and other natural disasters? Are they routinely sent home to be with their families every time the basement floods or the Japanese beetles attack the tomato crops?

The D-Rays were flat wrong and sure as hell could guess that they would be delayed. Even The Weather Channel got this one right. They just didn't want to face the Yanks at the end of a dismal season.

I personally believe that Selig does things to HELP the Yanks a lot more than to HURT the Yanks, as offseason and inseason deals have shown, but this time he didn't. Funny thing is, this time Selig was wrong not to forfeit the first game to the Yanks.

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 09:37 AM

I don't buy this familiy argument.

Even the poorest of the Devil Rays players is making $300,000 a year.

All of the players could have afforded to get their families out of the danger area. To fail to do so could be considered irresponsible. To compound that failure by also putting another parent potentially into the line of fire ranks among the worst family type of decisions could be made.

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 09:45 AM

If the Yankees were to appeal, they'd have to do it on the basis of the refuse clause, not the unable clause, or we'd set a precedent for forfeits whenever there are ATC delays.

No.

The Devil Rays were "able" to get there. Two airlines stated they offered to make planes available to the team on Sunday night. And that's not enough, there were also offers made earlier than that.

According to the NY Daily News--

Yankees sources and baseball union sources also contended that two major
airlines had offered to charter the Devil Rays to New York Sunday night.
And DuPuy acknowledged that multiple flights were available Friday night
through Saturday afternoon.

According to Chuck LeMar, "We wanted to stay in the Tampa Bay area, wait out the storm with our families.'' Not, they had to. They wanted to. And that's OK, what happens the next time when a team "wants" to stay home, rather than make a trip?

What would happen to you if you had to show up for work, had a chance to get there, already had the zone of danger pass, but you told your boss you "want to stay home" and won't be able to get there to perform all of your scheduled duties. Time to start checking those classified ads.

mainsr

09-07-2004, 10:04 AM

Wait, that's not what I mean about unable. Of course they were able to fly out earlier. I fly all the time for business; just last Monday, I changed my flight from 4:30 PM to noon because there were thunderstorms expected up here. They could've done the same. What I'm saying is that as the rule has been interpreted historically, "unable" refers to the situation where a manager uses all but nine of the players on his roster and then somebody breaks his leg or something. It has referred to a situation where there are not nine ballplayers who are physically able to peform. (Yes, yes, I know; no need to lecture me on intent vs. letter.)

What we're arguing here is semantics: You say that the Yankees are claiming that the Rays were able to get to the Bronx, but didn't. I say that the Yankees are claiming that the Rays' failure to fly out earlier when they could constitutes refusal. I really think that's splitting hairs. What we should be arguing is whether the Yankees' claim, whichever it is, is bogus. I think it is.

mainsr

09-07-2004, 10:07 AM

mainsr - do we know for a fact how many TB players have homes, and their families are there, in the TB area? I know that Sweet Lou and Tino Martinez are there - no question. Don Zimmer too.

But, do you think Upton lives there? His family? He's 20 years old. WHat about Rocco? Crawford? Lugo? Randall Simon?

I think you guys are misunderstanding my point, or maybe I explained it poorly. I'm not saying the players wanted to stay in TB because they all have families there. I'm saying they wanted to stay as community members, to help with the evacuation, volunteer at soup kitchens, set up cots at the YMCA evacuation sites, and maybe help drive the vans to take incapacitated nursing home and hospital patients out of harm's way.

hopbitters

09-07-2004, 10:43 AM

I think you guys are misunderstanding my point, or maybe I explained it poorly. I'm not saying the players wanted to stay in TB because they all have families there. I'm saying they wanted to stay as community members, to help with the evacuation, volunteer at soup kitchens, set up cots at the YMCA evacuation sites, and maybe help drive the vans to take incapacitated nursing home and hospital patients out of harm's way.

That's a good point, but it's still a conscious decision on the part of TB to not make a reasonable effort to get to the scheduled ballgame or the first rescheduled ballgame. I don't fault TB either for wanting to be with their families (though logic would dictate the safe thing to do would have been to move them out, not stay with them) or for wanting to help out in their community, but they still had a ballgame to play. Is that more important in any sense than helping people out? Of course not. It's still a decision, though.

Mind you, it shouldn't have been a decision, because MLB should have stepped in from the start and clearly stated when they should have left and what the consequences were if they didn't, but that would have involved foresight and leadership so the chances of that happening were about equal to every netshriner winning the lottery and being struck by lightning at the same time.

Whatever the reasons and no matter how good the reasons, TB chose not to make a concerted effort to reach the game under circumstances when they easily could have. If you start looking at the reasons, every team can come up with great reasons to show up late to games. How many other players have ties to Florida? There are natural and other disasters all the time all around the world where players have families and friends. If you start allowing teams to make schedules convenient to all their players, very few baseball games will be played. If you start picking and choosing which reasons to reschedule are best, you'll end up making more completely arbitrary decisions like this one. That's why there are schedules and rules and allegedly a body to enforce them, but alas that body is MLB, who can only shrug and leave us to have these discussions.

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 10:51 AM

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:10 PM

OK, true confession: I just wanted to see TB forfeit the game so that I could watch Larry Lucchino have a stroke. It was strictly for that personal entertainment value. Since there's now no chance that Bud will follow the rules the way they were written, I'll drop my quest. :stinker:

And, as a Yankees fan, I'm glad the game wasn't forfeited. But, looking at the facts, I don't see how MLB made the wrong call.

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 01:36 PM

They made the wrong call by suggesting and not demanding that TB get up to NY before the storm. ;)

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:38 PM

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:40 PM

If the Yankees were to appeal, they'd have to do it on the basis of the refuse clause, not the unable clause, or we'd set a precedent for forfeits whenever there are ATC delays.

No.

If air traffic control delays a team, then the team is "unable" to show up.

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 01:40 PM

Possible that mainsr was kidding?

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:42 PM

Possible that mainsr was kidding?

I withdraw that comment.

I had raced back here to see if I could just delete that response, but it's too late for that one.

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:46 PM

What I meant, before it came out wrong, was in the case of ATC, the team would have been "able" to play, but were prevented by forces other than them.

But, in the case, their own preference to stay in Tampa was what prevented them from playing.

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 01:48 PM

I'll also say that, if the Yankees complain about the possibility of the game being replayed at the end of the year, they should be told they would forfeit if they don't shut up. The Yankees have the opportunity to have it rescheduled as a doubleheader sometime between today and Thursday, and if they just don't "want" to do that, they would be in the same situation as what I'm complaining about the Devil Rays.

mainsr

09-07-2004, 03:16 PM

Can you provide a shred of evidence that indicates that's what the players did? And if that's what they did, then shouldn't they condemned for stopping those activities and then leaving to go to NY. Certainly, keeping up those efforts would be more worthy than playing a game.

YOU'VE BEEN PUNKED!!!!!!

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 04:31 PM

YOU'VE BEEN PUNKED!!!!!!

I don't have a clue what that means.

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 04:46 PM

It's like candid camera.

mainsr - when did you start watching TV!

nyy26wc

09-07-2004, 05:19 PM

A doubleheader was scheduled for tomorrow. But, the forecast calls for rain all day.

mainsr

09-07-2004, 05:21 PM

Lee - You must not have teenagers. "You've been punked" means that I was pulling your leg. Of course I don't assume the TB players were doing anything selfless.

Crash - I don't watch TV. I pick up this stuff from watching my kids.

Ytown Tribe fan

09-07-2004, 05:41 PM

One Tampa side of the story can be found here: http://tampatrib.com/Sports/MGBNQKVHTYD.html

Fair and balanced as always, the story leads off:

...

NEW YORK - Police could not reach Aubrey Huff in his flooded Westshore area home in time for him to make an already delayed flight for a baseball game on Monday.

It was the potential for such an occurrence that convinced the Devil Rays to stay home through Hurricane Frances.

But after the Rays scrambled all Monday morning and early afternoon to find a way around Frances' aftermath and onto an airplane, an unexpected storm awaited them when they arrived in New York hours later than expected.

A vast rift between Major League Baseball's richest team and one of its poorest seemed to grow considerably larger

...

So there you have it sports fans: the D-Rays, who apparently are the only team in MLB with players and family living in Florida, are the victims here, not only once but twice. First by the TOTALLY UNFORESEEN occurrence of flooding and airport closure associated with a major hurricane that had been approaching as forecast for about almost a week; but by the Evil Empire in their ruthless quest for total dominance.

Luckily for the D-Rays, the Commissioner, himself a former small market owner often victimized by the big money teams, was there to help out.

Is there a barf bag on this flight?!

mainsr

09-07-2004, 07:27 PM

Hey, are there any provisions that would require BOTH the Yanks and D-Rays to forfeit the second game?

Crash Course

09-07-2004, 10:41 PM

Very crafty of NY to allow the scheduling of the make-up on a day when it should rain, all day. Now, instead of just getting a rain out at night, they have the chance to get at least one game in at 4 PM - - and, if the forecast holds, then the "other" game would still need to be made up TBD.

mainsr

09-08-2004, 03:32 AM

I'm not a big fan of Jayson Stark, nor do I agree with his logic here, but any stretch of logic that turns the TB/NY situation into an indictment of Selig is OK with me:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1876789

nyy26wc

09-08-2004, 09:47 AM

nyy26wc

09-08-2004, 09:47 AM

From today's New York Times--

Another baseball official said that when the Devil Rays said on Monday that
they did not want to leave their families alone in the hurricane, it was
the first that the commissioner's office had heard that reason for not
leaving before they did. John McHale, vice president for administration of
Major League Baseball, spoke to Devil Rays officials at least 10 times over
the weekend, the official said, and that reason never came up.

Crash Course

09-08-2004, 10:39 AM

And, FWIW, I would bet that 1/2 (or more) of the Devil Ray players are single. What families?

KCBOOMER

09-08-2004, 12:22 PM

And, FWIW, I would bet that 1/2 (or more) of the Devil Ray players are single. What families?

You would be wrong, of course, particularly when you count the other traveling personnel involved (manager, coaches, trainers, etc.). And even if you were right are you saying that once a team has a married percentage less than 50% their families and homes (even unmarried players have these) don't count?

The only complaint Yankee fans have coming is the postponements weren't announced sooner. Everyone will concede they were incovenienced, even those who were sitting on their keisters expecting to watch the game on YES. I don't know of a proper way to redress this grievous wrong.

Sometimes, even when you are steamed, it is good to remember that Silence is Golden.

Crash Course

09-08-2004, 01:00 PM

FWIW, I have no issue with the Rays doing what they thought was best for them - that's what anyone would do - my issue is with BS lies being given as to the why. Be truthful.

hopbitters

09-08-2004, 04:18 PM

And even if you were right are you saying that once a team has a married percentage less than 50% their families and homes (even unmarried players have these) don't count?

This is a very dangerous (non-)ruling, because it raises exactly that kind of question. What MLB has done is to establish that a storm going through a team's home town is sufficient reason to reschedule an away game. Well, what if it's a nearby town next time, but a lot of players have houses/family there? And the time after that, it's across state, but 3 players, 2 coaches, and a trainer have homes there? The next time, there's a tornado in Oklahoma, but 4 St. Louis players and a coach have homes there. Then there's an earthquake in CA and everybody is ok, but a SF pitcher had a tree fall on his car and the batboy can't find his cat.

There are rules for a reason and they need to be applied equally to everybody. If you start making arbitrary decisions, you might as well throw out the rulebook. The issue here is not about one game between NY and TB. It's about the rules of the game, their enforcement, and the body that is allegedly [insert shrug here] responsible for doing so.