Roy White v. Jim Rice

[Crash Course]

On the YES broadcast, Michael Kay was Bill James bashing - sharing that he heard James said that, if you took away Rice's MVP season from his career, and then looked at his other seasons, in reality, Roy White was a better player because he was consistently better than Rice.

Kay, Ken Singleton, and Joe Girardi then all giggled over this - saying that while White was a good player, Rice was better, and that they would love to see James say this to Jim Rice's face, etc.

This AM, I looked at both careers. I think I see the point.

Rice had 62 RCAA in his MVP season. That means he had 208 RCAA in his other 14 seasons. White had 242 RCAA in 14 seasons.

But, of course, you cannot ignore that Rice did have that MVP season.

Still, if you look at seasons with >20 RCAA, White had 8 and Rice had 5.

Seasons with >=27 RCAA, Rice had 5 and White had 6.

I think this is the point that Kay claims that James was making.

Was Roy White a better player than Jim Rice?

[KCBOOMER]

No way Roy White was as good as Jim Rice unless you engage in legerdemain. Never at any time was RW confused with being one of the very best players in the game. The only way you can have this conversation is if you say what James did: "If you take away.....". But if you do make that subtraction then the discussion can be had.

For Michael Kay to laugh at anyone's baseball knowledge is truly laughable, let alone for him to pick on Bill James. Anybody whose baseball knowledge begins and ends with being a Yankee "homer" shouldn't deride anyone else's knowledge. It is fairly obvious that if James didn't have a Red Sox affiliation Kay would have been chirping about how good Roy White was which would have been nice.

[Makofan]

Roy White's comps

Jose Cardenal (929)
Claudell Washington (925)
Frank Schulte (902)
Brady Anderson (900)
Andy Van Slyke (892)
Garry Maddox (891)
Lloyd Moseby (888)
Johnny Callison (888)
Gene Woodling (886)
Tommy Harper (885)

His OPS+ was 121. He was a better fielder than Rice.


Jim Rice's comps

Orlando Cepeda (911) *
Andres Galarraga (893)
Duke Snider (880) *
Ellis Burks (880)
Joe Carter (864)
Dave Parker (856)
Billy Williams (854) *
Willie Stargell (843) *
Chili Davis (837)
Dale Murphy (836)

His OPS+ was 128


Sort of damages Jim Rice's HoF claim. Still, Rice inspired more fear at the plate

[Crash Course]

That was part of it on the broadcast, Kay saying that James said that Rice is not a HOFer because of the way he compares to Roy White.

Boomer, FWIW, any time Kay can slam SABRmetrics or Moneyball, etc., he does. And, he always, IMO, comes across as having no idea what he's talking about.

[TimmyB]

Funny this should be here. I just read James' comment on Jim Rice in the NHBBA last night.

While I am not a supporter of Rice for the HOF, he was a very, very, very good ballplayer. (I've posted enough on this in the past and I'll spare everyone the rehashing.)

If you had offered anyone a straight-up trade of White for Rice, the team holding Rice would have thought you insane.

[Crash Course]

Is it in the NHBBA where the White thing came up?

[TimmyB]

Is it in the NHBBA where the White thing came up?

Probably... it's in the listing of the 100 top left-fielders. (I just re-checked... it's in the Roy White comment at #25.)

[Crash Course]

Thanks Tim.

[WiredTiger]

I have to go with Rice. He's got a higher OPS+ in about 1300 more plate appearances. Even if you take out the MVP season he is still probably slighty better. It still doesn't mean he's a HOFer.

[mainsr]

Uh, guys...League context and park context. White played in a pitcher's park in a pitcher's era. Rice played in a good hitter's park in a hitter's era.

According to baseball-reference.com, here are White's and Rice's comparisons, league and park adjusted:

White - OBP +40 (.360 vs. .320), SLG +32 (.404 vs. .372)
Rice - OBP + 16 (.352 vs. .336), SLG +96 (.502 vs. .406)

Years OPS 100 points higher than league- and park-adjusted average:
White 5 (68-71, 75, but he was real close in 72 (+98) and 76 (+96))
Rice 7 (75, 77-79, 82-83, 86)

Big difference in SLG, of course, but I don't think it's that prepsoterous for James to have made the comparison. I seem to recall White being pretty good with the leather, that famous Venus de Milo line notwithstanding.

[nyy26wc]

Uh, guys...League context and park context. White played in a pitcher's park in a pitcher's era. Rice played in a good hitter's park in a hitter's era.

League average for RC/G, adjusted to park--

Rice: 4.83
White: 4.06

That's a nice size difference.

[manny tortolero]

Probably if Rice had been playing his carrer in a pitchers park, we will be comparing him with George Foster and not with White. Rice's away stats very similar with Foster stats (BTW, Foster was very steady home and away):

Jim Rice carrer's totals splits:

home 1048 g 208 hrs 802 rbi 320 avg 374 obp 546 slg 920 OPS
away 1041 g 174 hrs 649 rbi 277 avg 330 obp 459 slg 789 OPS

total 2089 g 382 hrs 1451 rbi 298 avg 358 obp 502 slg 860 OPS

George Foster carrer's totals splits:

home 1004 g 184 hrs 637 rbi 269 avg 338 obp 486 slg 824 OPS
away 973 g 164 hrs 602 rbi 279 avg 338 obp 474 slg 812 OPS

total 1977 g 348 hrs 1239 rbi 274 avg 338 obp 480 slg 818 OPS



White never put great power numbers and his skills as hitter were focussed in his ability to get on base.