Jeter's Defense - Continued.......

[Crash Course]

http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/2004_07.html#014437

The Jeter haters will most assuredly point to his defense as a continued flaw even though his range factor (4.75) and zone rating (.860) are a career best, and he is turning two at a personal high rate. In addition, the Yankee captain's fielding percentage is currently his second-highest ever. Better range, more double plays, and fewer errors mixed in with a great play here and there adds up to a possible Gold Glove for the man who always seems to be #2. If you think I've lost my mind, let me point out that no shortstop in baseball has a higher range factor, zone rating, and fielding percentage than Jeter this year. Rich Aurilia, David Eckstein, Pokey Reese, and Jose Valentin rank higher in two of these three areas among A.L. SS but only Aurilia has played in more than 60 games at short thus far.

Isn't the purpose of sabermetrics one of objectivity? When it comes to Jeter's defense this year, it is only fair we rid ourselves of the biases and let the facts speak for themselves.


Too bad Neyer is a pay site now.

[Makofan]

Call a spade a spade. When he was last in all those categories, he deserved the raps. Now that he is tops in those categories, he deserves the praise. I think A-Rod's tremendous range at 3B helps him immensely (not a knock on Jeter there). He can cheat a little closer to the 2B bag and play a little deeper, as A-Rod seems to go to his left very well and cuts off a lot of balls at the beginning of the infield cut that would normally go to the shortstop.

[Crash Course]

Not sure A-Rod deserves the credit. Brosius was a better 3B than A-Rod is now.

[Makofan]

Steve

Can you back that Brosius statement up?

[mgoettsche]

http://www.all-baseball.com/richbeat/archives/2004_07.html#014437



Too bad Neyer is a pay site now.


The tone is a little too defensive for me. Most all of the stathead sites all mention Jeter's improved D this year whenever they talk about him. And I'd agree with some of the critiques...Jeter's play was awesome, no doubt, but A-Rod's play was just as good and didn't get as much run.

[Crash Course]

You mean the DP that he thought was a TP?

[mgoettsche]

Yep, that's the one...lol

[mainsr]

Hey, that's a layup.

1. FP is a useless stat.
2. So is RF. (James deserves an awful lot of credit, in my book, for both coming up with the stat and then, publicly, debunking it.)
3. More DPs. I suppose the exit of flyball pitcher Clemens and almost-as-bad-as-Jeter 2B Soriano have nothing to do with that.
4. Played fewer games than Pokey, Eckstein, and Valentin? Hey, nobody said they should sit Jeter down. His offense earns him a full-time job. Doesn't make him better with the leather.

Look, Jeter is a deserving All-Star. So is Piazza. Doesn't mean they're the second coming of Dave Concepcion and Johnny Bench with the glove, nor that they have to be.

[Crash Course]

I'll give Manny the "credit" for the TP confusion. Actually, what Manny did (kept running the bases) was illegal and maybe grounds for the 3rd out.

That was a great play by A-Rod. But, IMHO, watchig him everyday, I will say that he is still not a GG 3B. He makes some great plays. Misses some plays that he should get too. With more time at the bag, he should become a GG 3B.

[Crash Course]

mainsr - what about the Zone Rating?

[Crash Course]

FWIW, Jeter is currently second in the AL for Defensive WS:

Guzman MIN 4.4
Young TEX 4.2
Jeter NYY 4.2
Lugo TBD 3.7
Crosby OAK 3.6
Guillen DET 3.2
Aurilia SEA 3
Valentin CHW 2.7
Tejada BAL 2.5
Reese BOS 2.1
Berroa KC 1.8
Eckstein ANA 1.7
Gomez TOR 1.3
Vizquel CLE 1
Amezaga ANA 0.8
Crespo BOS 0.8
Woodward TOR 0.6
Garciapar BOS 0.3
Blanco KC 0.3
Santiago SEA 0.3
Dransfeld CHW 0.2
McDonald CLE 0.2
Gipson TBD 0.1
Leone SEA 0

[mgoettsche]

I'll give Manny the "credit" for the TP confusion. Actually, what Manny did (kept running the bases) was illegal and maybe grounds for the 3rd out.

That was a great play by A-Rod. But, IMHO, watchig him everyday, I will say that he is still not a GG 3B. He makes some great plays. Misses some plays that he should get too. With more time at the bag, he should become a GG 3B.

From what I've read, I agree with that. He's pretty close. Just out of curiousity, who rates as the top defensive 3B in the AL now?

[mainsr]

Crash, re the ZR - Oops, forgot to mention it - That's legitimate, although he's in 6th place (Reese, Valentin, Eckstein, Lugo, and Aurilia are 1-5). The numbers would seem to indicate that he's improved. I think that A-Rod at third and not-Soriano at second help, but hey, I'm not opposed to Jeter getting better. Worked at the plate for Estrada and Mora!

Defensive stats are still very crude.

[Crash Course]

In DWS, it's A-Rod: http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/wsalpos/

[Makofan]

So therefore A-Rod already IS a Gold Glove 3B, like I said ...

[Crash Course]

I can think of at least 5 times (thereabouts) where he missed balls that were right there for him. A-Rod has to make those plays to be a GG for me. He's very close.

[Crash Course]

Can you back that Brosius statement up?

No stats handy. But, seeing them both play for NY, I can tell you that Bro was more polished. A-Rod will get there - by the end of the year, or so.

No knock on A-Rod. It's all about getting in the reps.

[mgoettsche]

Wow, by defensive WS its A-Rod by a mile. Shows the dearth of quality defensive 3B in the AL I guess...

[Crash Course]

True, so , true..........

[mainsr]

FWIW, Jeter is currently second in the AL for Defensive WS

I like WS, but it's playing-time dependent. So a guy like Reese won't look as good as a guy who plays every day.

Boy, how can you trust WS when it wouldn't have given Palmiero the GG the year he played 21 games in the field?

[Crash Course]

I have to remember all this when Jeter is among the trailers again. ;)

[mainsr]

When I was in college, I was an applied math/stats major. I friend asked me how to analyze some data. I said, "Well, what do you want to prove?"

Let me repeat: Jeter is a deserving All-Star. He's just no good with the glove. The same could be said of Carew, Piazza, Hornsby, and many, many more. I don't see why so many Yankee fans think you're taking the Lord's name in vain when you say the guy's nickname should be "Past a Diving."

[huskerdru]

This is half a season's worth of stats...DEFENSIVE stats, no less. I don't think we can drawmany tenable conclusions from this. Could be an aberration or an extended hot streak. Could be a career glove year. Could be that Jeter's worked his butt of and improved quite a bit. We won't know for a while yet...if at all!

[Crash Course]

mainsr - See part I of this: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=14004

my beef is in there somewhere.........

[Makofan]

I belive that people have good and bad years in the field, just like they do at the plate. If Neifi Perez hits .320/.380/.430 one year (lets pretend for a second) we can say he is having a great year at the plate. That doesnt make the other 5 awful years not awful.

[Crash Course]

Interesting thing.

Every year, Baseball America comes out with a BEST TOOLS issue - - - best fastball, best bunter, best OF arm, best baserunner, etc.

It's voted on by the managers in each league. They do a BEST TOOLS for each league.

Who was selected as Best Defensive SS this year?

Derek Jeter.

[mgoettsche]

I wonder if some component of this vote is sympathy for him being maligned all these years in the field. Who knows, he could be the best this year...I just find it dubious. Most Improved defensively? I buy that. Best?

[Crash Course]

Could be that the MGRs are giving more credit for headsie play, etc., than on pure range, etc.

[mgoettsche]

That seems reasonable.

I would love to see that defensive metric MLB is coming out with in a couple of years be retrofitted to evaluate Jeter 2003 and Jeter 2004. If it could explain the factors going into his improvement, it would be worth its weight in gold.

[mainsr]

Could be that the MGRs are giving more credit for headsie play, etc., than on pure range, etc.

I'd generally give managers a bit more credit than sportswriters--just a bit--but they are not really fonts of empirical knowledge. Check out how many teams bat OBP disasters in the No. 1 and No. 2 spots if you need proof.

Jeter is apparently having a good year with the leather, but to say that he's better than Pokey Reese--who, I will readily admit, is vastly inferior to Jeter in every other way (except fathering illegitimate children)--is pretty nuts.

This stuff reminds me of the people in Minnesota who were trying to argue what a good fielder Rod Carew was. He wasn't, or at least certainly wasn't after his knee got lunched in his early 20's. My reaction was, why is this? I don't remember people trying to argue that Mark Belanger or Eddie Brinkman were actually good hitters. It's like people think that being a poor fielder is such a detriment to a player's value that he's not really any good unless you refute the bad D reputation. Piazza faces the same thing, except worse, in that everybody thinks he's a lousy fielder, not just the statheads.

With A-Rod at third and Nomar in the NL, the argument for Jeter as the league's top SS is strong (notwithstanding objections from Detroit, Baltimore, and Dallas). Why isn't that good enough?