An attempt to give love to 3B

[Makofan]

Well, based on my limited analysis tools, I compiled this list of star thirdbasemen, in an attempt to see who SHOULD be in the Hall of Fame.

Games at Total Black Grey
Player Hof? 3B Games Seasons Ink Ink Adj OPS+
Schmidt, Mike Y 2212 2399 18 74 224 147
Killebrew, H Y 969 2455 22 48 193 143
Matthews, Eddie Y 2181 2345 17 16 183 143
Jones, Chipper N 1008 1405 10 0 83 143
Brett, George Y 1692 2200 21 39 159 135
McGraw, John Y 782 1099 16 10 50 135
Baker, Frank Y 1548 1548 13 26 196 135
Boggs, Wade N 2215 2439 18 37 138 130
Rolen, Scott N 1050 1053 8 0 15 128
Horner, Bob N 684 1020 10 0 56 127
Santo, Ron N 2130 2243 15 11 147 125
Bonilla, Bobby N 957 2113 16 3 96 124
Elliot, Bob N 1365 1978 15 2 111 124
Madlock, Bill N 1440 1806 15 16 55 123
Molitor, Paul Y 791 1495 21 24 145 122
Cey, Ron N 1989 2073 17 0 80 121
Zimmerman, H N 945 1456 13 24 123 121
Rosen, Al N 932 1044 10 23 97 121
Evans, Darrell N 1442 2687 21 8 82 119
Hack, Stan N 1836 1938 16 11 125 119
Bando, Sal N 1896 2019 16 6 85 119
Groh, Heinie N 1299 1676 16 14 90 118
Boyer, Ken N 1785 2034 15 4 138 116
Caminiti, Ken N 1676 1760 15 0 28 116
Ventura, Robin N 1876 1977 15 0 19 116
Clift, Harlond N 1550 1582 12 2 70 116
DeCinces, Doug N 1543 1649 15 0 23 115
Collins, Jimmy Y 1683 1719 14 6 128 113
Keltner, Ken N 1500 1526 13 1 71 112
Kell, George Y 1692 1788 15 16 93 111
Lansford, C N 1720 1862 15 4 30 111
Nettles, Graig N 2412 2700 22 4 56 110
Lindstrom, Fred Y 809 1389 13 3 57 110
Leach, Tommy N 955 2156 19 11 114 109
Bell, Buddy N 2183 2405 18 2 33 108
Traynor, Pie Y 1863 1914 17 2 134 107
Higgins, Pinky N 1768 1802 14 0 34 106
Robinson, Br Y 2870 2900 23 10 133 104
Steinfeldt, H N 1386 1646 14 9 65 102
Cross, Lave N 1721 2275 21 0 83 100
Rolfe, Red N 1084 1175 10 9 47 100
Gaetti, Gary N 2282 2507 20 1 31 96

Conclusions?

1) Toss Jimmy Collins, George Kell, Fred Lindstrom and Pie Traynor out of the Hall. We'll keep Brooks - 23 seasons and 2870 games at 3B while still maintaining above average hitting is good enough for me.

2) Boggs is a no-brainer, Chipper is in and Scott Rolens is on his way but not there yet. My beefs with these guys is I like to see Hall of Famers have years where they at least lead the league in SOMETHING. However, maybe I am focusing on the wrong things.

3) Bob Horner gets no love from me, but I would put in Al Rosen - like Horner but more dominating at his peak.

4) Ron Santo did everything you could want from a Hall of Famer - keeping him out is a travesty

5) Do any of these make it: Bonilla, Elliot, Madlock, Cey, Zimmerman ? I 'd vote in Madlock and Zimmerman

My final HoF 3B list:

Schmidt, Killebrew, Matthews, Brett, McGraw, Baker, Santo, Madlock, Molitor, Zimmerman, Rosen, Brooks, and Boggs and Chipper when eligible

Any thoughts on whether these stats are a good basis for analysis?

[KCBOOMER]

CAREER
3B
GAMES >= 1000
RCAA displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OPS displayed only--not a sorting criteria
OWP displayed only--not a sorting criteria

RCAA RCAA G RCAA OPS OWP
1 Eddie Mathews 652 2259 652 .894 .710
2 Mike Schmidt 582 2246 582 .908 .687
3 Wade Boggs 539 2336 539 .858 .666
4 George Brett 481 1741 481 .882 .698
5 Denny Lyons 323 1084 323 .855 .664
6 Chipper Jones 318 1086 318 .945 .685
7 Stan Hack 306 1918 306 .790 .628
8 Home Run Baker 303 1575 303 .805 .659
9 Ron Santo 272 2126 272 .838 .598
10 Bob Elliott 258 1419 258 .842 .642
11 Al Rosen 230 1044 230 .879 .666
12 Sal Bando 212 2019 212 .760 .597
13 Ron Cey 206 2026 206 .799 .587
T14 Scott Rolen 189 1053 189 .884 .625
T14 Darrell Evans 189 1431 189 .796 .608
16 Ken Boyer 174 1867 174 .818 .571
17 Bill Madlock 164 1528 164 .807 .587
18 Eddie Yost 162 2109 162 .765 .561
T19 Ken Caminiti 161 1696 161 .797 .575
T19 Heine Groh 161 1393 161 .760 .604

I did a simple routine that I like to use to evaluate whether a player is HoF worthy. Since we are looking at 3B's I insisted on 1000 games played at the position. Arbitrary, sure, but so is everything else in this world.

Then I ranked them by RCAA for the top 20 as you see above. Then I ran the same list by OPS versus the League, and then again by OPW. I then insisted a player had to be on all three lists to be eligible. That got rid of Bando, Cey, Boyer, Madlock, Yost, Caminiti, and Groh. Then I threw out Rolen (too early), Jones (too early and he has changed positions), and Evans (like a lot of people I think this guy is underrated, but not as much as some people would tell you). Also dumped Rosen. Basically a seven year player whose counting numbers are very unimpressive (less than 1100 hits, etc.).

This leaves me with Mathews, Schmidt, Boggs, Brett, Lyons (little light on games but we have to have someone from the 19th century), Baker, Santo, and Elliott. I'd put in Brooks under the Smith/Mazeroskie rule. Obviously, Killebrew, McGraw, and Molitor are HoFers, I just don't have them as 3B's, nor does the HoF.

[KCBOOMER]

Continuing my thoughts we shouldn't forget the two Negro League players in the HoF: Judy Johnson and Ray Dandridge. I know we don't have the numbers to support this, but I will go along with the VC out of a sense of debt.

For some reason I have omitted Stan Hack and I am not sure which way to fall on him. The BBWAA and the VC have passed on him and considering the era he played maybe I should just go along with that.

I'm rejecting four people who are in the HoF (Collins, Kell, Lindstrom, and Traynor) and adding three of my own (Lyons, Elliott, and Santo). That leaves seven I agree with them on (Brett, Baker, Mathews, Schmidt, Robinson, Johnson, and Dandridge). That leaves Boggs who the BBWAA will elect on the first ballot next year.

[pwdennis]

My thoughts

1) Tossing out Pie Traynor and Jimmie Collins is pointless - the demands of the position have changed considerably over time - both were regarded as the best at their position at the time they played. You can make a better case for ditching Kell and Lindstrom

2) Killebrew really should not be considered as a third baseman - he played the position bravely, but it really wasn't where he belonged. Killebrew; however, was a gold glove compared to the way Bonilla fielded the position.

3) I notice that you didn't include Dave Kingman as a third sacker. The Giants actually thought he belonged there for a couple of seasons (must have been smoking some strong weed)

4) Heinie Zimmerman's 1912 season is completely out of context with the rest of his career although he seems to have had decent power and been a good RBI man. Maybe Smed can explain the reason for this. In 1914 & 1915 the competition was considerably watered down, yet Heinie didn't shine like this. Remove 1912 and Heinie doesn't all that impressive (his BA drops to .286 and his SLG to .402 and most of his black ink disappears)

5) Bob Elliott I can see installing in Cooperstown. Curiously , he didn't miss any time to WW2 and equally curiously, his post WW2 numbers seemed to match his WW2 numbers.(although from what I've seen, it appears that the NL lost fewer of its top level stars to the military than did the AL, and lost them for shorter periods. Musial lost one season compared to there apiece for Joltin' Joe, The Splendid Splinter, The Original Hammerin' Hank, and Bob Feller)

6) Al Rosen's career is simply too short. I don't think he missed time to WW2 (I could be wrong about this) and his 1044 games equated to only 6.78 seasons of the 154 game variety)

[KCBOOMER]

I don't have any problem bouncing Traynor. His RCAA as a 3B for the 1920 through 1941 period is lower than Freddy Lindstrom's, Harlond Clift's, and Stan Hack. Those are direct contemporaries.

Same thing for Eddie Collins. He ranks 10th in RCAA as a 3B for the period 1880-1919 (the dead ball era). He doesn't even make the top ten for OWP or OPS versus the league. No way he generates enough defense to overcome that.

[sweaver]

Third base seems to have the fewest Hall-worthy players of any position, save perhaps catcher. I am not sure why this is, except maybe that it is a "tweener" position, calling for a mix of offense and defense.

Of the four "old-timers" in question, I would keep Jimmy Collins, the best of the lot. Losing Traynor, Lindstrom and Hack wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep.

Darn few pre-WW II 3B belong in the Hall, just Baker and maybe Collins really deserving induction. McGraw belongs mostly based on his managerial accomplishments.

Ron Santo is the best eligible position player not in the Hall. Let's start the grassroots movement to put him in!

[LeGrandOrange]

Pie can stay, although he just barely gets in. He has a good RCAP, and usually having over 200 RCAP helps your case. I'll say he only gets in because he played in the era that he played in, though...any other time frame and there's no chance.

I don't have the same reservations for Jimmy Collins, yet. I just never saw his greatness. Then again, if I do a defensive evalutation for everyone I've selected to my HOF...you might see that change.

[Makofan]

I don't think Jimmy Collins was even the best 3B defensively in his league; that was probably the Neifi Perez clone Lee Tannehill (his brother Jesse hit better than him!), and Lave Cross was good also. And I think in the NL Tommy Leach was better also with the glove

[JamesI]

Third does seem to be the hardest position to get in the hall with. And with that there are still players like Kell and Lindstrom in while Santo is out.
Dump Kell and Lindstrom, let in Santo. I wouldn't dump Traynor, but he's close.
Santo's the only player I'd add, currently eligible. Obviously, Boggs goes in soon.
Chipper when he retires will get in. Rolen probably will get in.

[SmedIndy]

The problem is that the position was so rough in the early days not many could stay put. Perhaps Jerry Denny should be in the hall, he played all of his games at 3B (1109) without a glove.

[SmedIndy]

If he would have played long enough, Billy Joyce would have been in. Denny Lyons also get some consideration from me, but he was done at 31 as well. It was a rough time to play 3B.

McGraw, of course, is the premier 3B of the 19th century, but he's already in.