2001 World Series Whine

[Xanadu Dragon]

OK, I'm still not over it. (http://www.netshrine.com/2001ws.html)

Am I alone?

[Yogi#8Fan]

I haven't touched any of the videotapes of the games and would tape over them but I pulled the tab out. I still say had Hitchcock (far less scouted than Mendoza, did great in game 5) pitched in the 8th, Mo wouldn't have been hurt. Overuse has its letdown and that was the end result. You can't ride a stallion 24/7 w/o getting bucked.

I hated seeing the end result, especially by a team which can't even do a simple pileup or whose crowd uses pompoms to cheer. I just feel like a fan of another team saying "wait'll next year".

You can get on my case but I still wouldn't mind having Sheffield in OF if that makes 2002 much stronger. Nothing like a steam roller to make the winter shorter.

Oh, would you like some cheese w/that whine?

[Xanadu Dragon]

Yog, you and "Sheff" - - I dunno? :rolleyes: Besides, your lust for Gary has nothing to do with this thread.

Back to Rivera. He had two days rest before game seven - - - off day between Games 5 and 6 and the blowout in game 6.

He threw 14 pitches in the 8th inning.

It's freakin Game 7 - 9th inning and a one run lead.

Under no means is an excuse of "tired" permitted, IMHO.

Go tell it to Randy Johnson. He didn't look too tired that day.

[Duque]

It happens. One can't expect absolute perfection from Rivera. The odds were against him.

Look at Eck - one of the greatest closers in the game, and he blew some big ones.

Rivera just picked a bad time to show he's human.

[Yogi#8Fan]

OK, I'll leave Gary what'shisface out of this and other threads unless he's mentioned by name in the opening title (or so I'll try). ;)

When I see someone's had 50 saves, I figure this person's been used to their limits. Mariano has had quite a few BLSVs this year so taking it easy on him seems to be the solution. Two days off or not, no Nellie or other mid-reliever in the pen, everyone else needed to make up this innings eaten.

If "tired" isn't an excuse for you, so be it. After a season of overwork on his part, Ramiro Mendoza's and Mike Stanton's, then when Stanton went into a few ineffective times, this made it even harder. Why do you think Karsay was brought onboard. George, Joe and Cashman don't want this repeating itself.

As to Randy Johnson, I don't know how you pitch 7 then relieve f/two innings the next day but he did it. I'm not sure how much he'd carried Arizona in 2001 but w/Roger Clemens good for 5+ to 6+, Andy Pettitte looking ineffective after 7, Moose good f/two, Hernandez not so hot, I still say that's a lot of pressure on Mariano.

Like I said, for only a single inning of relief, I think that a less scouted but crisp Hitchcock could've done a world of good in the 8th inning. In his previous start, he worked great in game 5 after Mariano's tank was completely empty. I think a manager would be wise to not expect perfection from a closer who was flat in his last start, especially after 50 saves and 7 BLSVs.

I feel there would've been more had the offense or the next reliever not saved him, which is totally unlike Sandman. Hence, calling in Hitchcock in 8th inning, game 7 to provide emotional "relief" f/the closer. I think it would've worked.

[sweaver]

I figure the D'backs knew all about Hitchcock, him being a veteran and having just pitched in the NL. He may even have faced them in 2001. I think the WS for the Yanks was a matter of too much Johnson and Schilling, not enough offense.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by sweaver
I figure the D'backs knew all about Hitchcock, him being a veteran and having just pitched in the NL. He may even have faced them in 2001. I think the WS for the Yanks was a matter of too much Johnson and Schilling, not enough offense. His being a veteran never stopped him from relieving Mariano after Mo had no gas in his start before game 7. Did a fine job, too.

If I could pretend to be Torre, I'd say that Mendoza can handle lots of heavy hitters but at times, I've seen his pitching spotty and he gets hit. Any WS team worth their salt would scout the setup man and closer carefully so Mendoza's not hiding below the radar screen. Hitch being a vet or not, he's not expected to be brought out anymore than Ted Lilly (who's not such a bad reliever) was. All I'd require from anyone in the 8th would be simple: 1-2-3 and do it strongly.

I'm going by Gonzo's comment that he knew exactly what Mo was going to throw so he hit it. For scouting to be effective, I think you have to know what someone's going to throw (Mo's cutter fastball) and you have to figure out how to hit it. You don't know what someone's going to throw or you're not expecting that person, it can work.

Case in point: vet David Cone in 2000 WS vs vet Mike Piazza. Coney wasn't expected to be in the WS, since he wasn't overly effective (4-14, 6.91). Denny Neagle had a very high OPP AVG vs Piazza so he was taken out later in the game and Coney did the 1-2-3 and left the next inning. I figure the Mets weren't expecting him, despite him having been one of their own before.

That simple 1-2-3 inning from Hitch would've allowed Sandman to give up a hit and still be safe. If you remember, Mo's 8th included a hit or two and IMHO, he didn't seem exactly overpowering. He wasn't Mariano the Invincible & Unittable to me in the 8th. Now think you've got Pettitte, Moose, Hernandez, Mendoza, Stanton, Hitch, Lilly, putting in Mo in the 8th gave him more room to fail IMHO.

Thinking of "keeping the ears to the railroad tracks", I figure if he didn't look so great in his prior start, take it easy on him. Heck, I'd have about 4 guys ready for the 8th and all hands on deck for extra innings if need be, and I don't care if we've gotta pitch Clay Bellinger for that matter.

After the score was tied, I'd have taken Mo off the mound anyway, inserted a fresh arm. Whoever wants to get on my case for this, go ahead. I'd rather get some "miracle" 10th or 11th inning, get the last run and get it done ugly than go home sulking and lose pretty (keeping your best guy in until he fails, or "losing with your best"). If choosing between winning with my 2nd, 3rd or 4th best over losing with my best, I'll take the W.

[Duque]

Rivera struck out the side in the 8th.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Yog - - there's no way in hell that Torre wants any other pitcher than Mo on the mound, in the 8th and 9th, with the series on the line. Hitchcock? Even if Mo were dead, why would he bring in Hitchcock?

As a pitcher, you don't allow yourself to get beat on your 2nd best pitch.

As a manager, you don't allow yourself to get beat with your 2nd (or worse) best pitcher.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Originally posted by Duque
Rivera struck out the side in the 8th.

Again, I add, on 14 pitches.

Barely a sweat.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Duque
Rivera struck out the side in the 8th. Almost. From ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/gameLog?date=20011104&gameId=211104129):
ARIZONA 8TH
-Mariano Rivera relieved Mike Stanton.
-Gonzalez struck out swinging.
-M Williams struck out swinging.
-Finley singled to right.
-Bautista struck out swinging.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Yog - - there's no way in hell that Torre wants any other pitcher than Mo on the mound, in the 8th and 9th, with the series on the line. Hitchcock? Even if Mo were dead, why would he bring in Hitchcock?

As a pitcher, you don't allow yourself to get beat on your 2nd best pitch.

As a manager, you don't allow yourself to get beat with your 2nd (or worse) best pitcher. If not the 8th, then after Counsell got HBP in the 9th (see link in my last post), w/score tied and he'd already given up a ribbie, I'd think w/all due respect to wiser baseball wisdom, I'd rather win the series than make the preferred decision. Winning to me is the preferred bottom line, not just the method. I just couldn't see keeping someone in after the 8th wasn't 1-2-3 _and_ he ties the score, then HBP. I'd see a definite :warn: in my mind.

Fault me if you wish, but after that HBP, I'd bring in Mendoza or Hitchcock. I'd just rather win (even if it's w/my 2nd or 3rd best) than lose w/my best, but I already realize you wouldn't have done this.

I realize a manager shouldn't lose with his 2nd best and even bringing in Mo was a serious gamble Torre took (on another board, everyone practically fainted, was on pins & needles when Mo was brought out in the 8th, not the 9th). If Mo wasn't super effective in other starts, to me, he's only "the man" if he's on. If not, I say take some load off him and that's why I'd put Hitchcock or Mendoza in for at least 2/3 of the 8th.

Had the Arizona 8th gone 1-2-3, it would've been "Gonzo, Williams, Finley". For the 9th, it would've been "Bautista, Grace, Dellucci". Miller, Bell, Cummings all went up to bat before Womack hit an RBI double. Even had Mariano taken 4 batters to finish the 9th, neither Womack nor Gonzalez would've come up to bat. Gonzo led off the 8th and hit the walkoff RBI single in the 9th w/1 out so that shows a breakdown in Mariano IMHO.

No criticism of yourself, Duque or Torre implied, but if you did it all over again the same way, how would you expect different results? Can you :help: me out on this?

[Xanadu Dragon]

Sorry - - there is no way anyone can convince me that another pitcher should have relieved Rivera in the 9th - - esp. once runners got on.

I will admit, that I thought Mendoza should have pitched the 8th inning. That's the way I would have probably gone - - Mendoza in the 8th and Rivera in the 9th.

But, the night Clemens won in NY, also with a 2-1 lead, Rivera can in to start the 8th and shut the game down on 29 pitches - - so, it's not like Torre was trying something impossible in Game 7.

Yog - - let me ask you this - - had Torre used Hithcock in the 8th, or had him come in with the score tied in the 9th, and Sterling lost the game, do you think Torre would be able to show his face in this town again?

[sweaver]

Yes, Rivera struck out the side. He did not strike out the side in order.

This is just back seat driving with 20-20 hindsight. Of course Torre leaves Rivera in. The best pitcher in World Series history? No way he comes out in the 9th of the 7th game. He pitches the 10th and 11th for me, too, if necessary.

[Xanadu Dragon]

If Rivera makes the 85' throw to 2B on Dellucci, we're looking at runner on first, one out, with Durazo or Colburnn pinch hitting for Johnson, most likely.

This would be followed by Womack and Counsell (or the remainder of Durazo and Colbrunn). Somehow, I think Rivera gets the two outs before Miller/Cummings advances three bases.

At least, that's the way it works when I dream at night.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Sorry - - there is no way anyone can convince me that another pitcher should have relieved Rivera in the 9th - - esp. once runners got on.

I will admit, that I thought Mendoza should have pitched the 8th inning. That's the way I would have probably gone - - Mendoza in the 8th and Rivera in the 9th.Basically, if Torre felt Mendoza was strong on his last relief effort, he'd be wise to go with him. If not, I'd say too chancy, but I guess we may disagree on this also. I consider Mendoza (or alternatively, Hitchcock if Mendoza didn't fare well recently) to be prevention, as in avoiding a harmful situation like what occurred. That to me would be ideal scenario and no one would be faulted or second-guessed for years to come.

Bringing in another reliever and taking out Mariano I'm sure will even land me in hot water w/fellow Yankee fans but like Brenley bringing in Randy for game 7 in relief, it's a chance I felt had to be taken. True, Sandman is the dominant active closers, but only dominant when he's "on" and if the Yankees need 2 outs to get to extra innings and hope for some magic there, I'd take my chances with others.

I figure what's the purpose of saying you've got every single pitcher available to come on the hill if you'll never consider using them. Not just for the sake of using them but if your top guy isn't up to par, I don't see a problem w/taking him out and putting in a fresher arm. I'll admit that yours and sweaver's ideas represent common baseball wisdom but I'd have a problem leaving in a guy in such a chancy situation when all is on the line. Bottom line to me: he does great, he stays in; he staggers, a fresh arm is put on the mound.

I'll only say that if Gonzo leads off the 8th and then bats again in the 9th for the walkoff RBI single, something had to be done differently. If nothing is done and we leave it to chance, that chance being your top man who's not at his peak, guys are getting on base, Counsell HBP, the scenario doesn't seem ideal. That's why I chose to say Joe could've taken the ball.
But, the night Clemens won in NY, also with a 2-1 lead, Rivera can in to start the 8th and shut the game down on 29 pitches - - so, it's not like Torre was trying something impossible in Game 7.

Yog - - let me ask you this - - had Torre used Hithcock in the 8th, or had him come in with the score tied in the 9th, and Sterling lost the game, do you think Torre would be able to show his face in this town again?Mo has done excellently in the 8th. Great stuff in fact, starting w/the ALDS if I remember correctly. I was on pins & needles but was happy it was done, since the best man was put in the spot where he should shine and he did.

I'll strongly agree Joe would've looked really bad if Sterling Hitchcock had lost the game. In fact, people might not've been too happy about Sterling even being given a 2-year deal if this happened. Joe would've looked bad, Steinbrenner would've been furious but it's a chance I'd take.

I realize Joe is most patient and faithful to a fault (see Knoblauch, Pettitte), and I do realize he prefers his pitchers work out of a problem situation, rather than pulling the hook early but after having seen Andy Pettitte get rocked like this, I'd err on the side of not letting them work out of the situation. I'd just put in the guy who I think can get those two outs. If the Yanks manage to score in the 10th, we've got a few fresh arms to handle that inning (Pettitte, Mendoza, Lilly).

Had that been done, common baseball practice (however you'd term it) definitely wouldn't have been followed but the end result to me could've been different. Had Joe done that, I feel he'd have been seen as having made one of the ballsiest and daringest moves and managed to eek that one out. If it didn't work out, long winter ahead.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by sweaver
He pitches the 10th and 11th for me, too, if necessary. The only time he was thought fresh for the 11th was when he'd thrown all of 3 pitches in the 9th against Seattle and Byung Kim (sp?) gave up a walkoff HR to Soriano w/tied score. Since he pitched so efficiently, especially when fresh, I'd have agreed. With too many baserunners and a HBP, I'd disagree.

Even when Hitchcock did relieve Mariano in extra innings in Mariano's last start before game 7, I feel that Joe was wise to take him out. To me, leaving him in just leaves him out there to put the game further out of reach. I just don't think he looked very strong out there in game 7 so I wouldn't keep him in there. All that was needed was 2 outs and the better pitcher who's been used frequently wasn't able to do this. I'd go to plan B.

[TGwynn19]

Yogi,

You are doing the biggest revisionist recap of an event that I have ever read. You offer so many different situations and what you would have done that I can't follow it.

The simple fact remains that Rivera came into the game with a two run lead in the 8th. Most everyone watching that game, and I assume you as well, thought "game over" Yankees win.

But you know what, it did not happen. Joe Torre went with his best ( and quite possibly ) THE best WS pitcher ever and he and the Yankees lost.

Torre did the correct move. Anyone else that would have been in charge would have done the same thing......except you

[Xanadu Dragon]

Ditto Trevor - - all well said.

I too, even when they had 1st and 2nd with one out, was not sweating it - - because it was Mo. My wife was concerned and I turned to her and said "No problem. Pop out and a fly out and it's done" - - and just as I finished, Womack singled and Counsell was HBP - - then, I said, shit, they're gonna lose.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Trevor, I thought the ballgame was over also. It was actually a 1-run lead (2-1) at the beginning of the 8th, but I just offered what I figured would save the game. I just have trouble accepting what happened and hoped that the scenario offered would've led to a Yankee win, not a loss.

In the end, as Steve had mentioned, perhaps Mendoza starting in the 8th might've saved the day. That's how I feel.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Xanadu Dragon
Pop out and a fly out and it's done" - - and just as I finished, Womack singled and Counsell was HBP - - then, I said, shit, they're gonna lose. That's why I'd originally said to take Mariano out. I just didn't want to lose. That's it.