Forget About Stats This Opening Day

[Crash Course]

See: http://www.netshrine.com/20040325.html

Discussion welcome and appreciated.

[shultzy65]

See: http://www.netshrine.com/20040325.html

Discussion welcome and appreciated.

i read it 5 times and agreed with it 3 times.giving me a lifetime .600 ave in agreeing with such articles (bad attempt at stat humour)

the glory of uncertainty, the hopeless loser getting one over the superstar, the luck - the bad luck - the curse... its all about the game but i still think you can enjoy the stat side of the game without forgetting about the actual game itself. i enjoy watching a guy bat after hearing he is 3/30 lifetime against a certain pitcher - especially when he makes it 4/31 with a homer... or hearing that a guy is the 117th pitcher since fred nerk in 1913 to pitch lefthanded on a tuesday in baltimore in may.

It sort of all fits together -

[Crash Course]

Thanks shultzy!

I love baseball statistics too - don't get me wrong. I play with baseball statistics just about every day of the year.

The main point of the SOTS feature is to point out that we should not look at stats alone in our appreciation of the game. The stats do not help you know what it is like to actually play the game.

People enjoyed going to the game before we had the luxury of seeing Batting Averages on the scoreboard or pitch speeds at the park, etc. And, they enjoyed watching the games. The game itself, and the players "playing" it is a beautiful thing to behold, sans stats, IMHO.

[shultzy65]

i tend to keep my stats 'thinking' well away from the game 'watching' (only on tv for me unfortunately - my dream is to get to see a real life mlb game).

i can pour over old stats, analysis and opinion for hours but when the games on i never find myself worrying about stats or even thinking much about them at all - as i said before, i enjoy the unlimited stat info that crops up during a broadcast but thats purely entertainment value.

btw - i just finished a book about ty cobb and there is mention in it about a year when cobb and some other guy went down to the wire for best batting ave and it took a day or so after the last game for the official stat to emerge - these days it would have taken around 1-2 seconds after the final AB.

now, where's the fun in that ! - give me the 2 day argument any time...

[sweaver]

Hey, when I watch a game, I watch the game....I don't care about the stats. Stats are for when the game isn't on.

[KCBOOMER]

I agree that when you go to the game you go for the entertainment value it has and the enjoyment you get from it. I guess 80% is a good number because most situations speak for themselves. I think understanding the numbers gives you some insight to a manager's decisions, but they tempt you to ignore some human realities.

Statistical analysis really tempts a person to forget that there is more to a decision than the statistical past. Some times you have to bring a bum and let him get mugged so the rest of a very tired bullpen can get some rest. Sometimes you have to let a guy play who has no success against the day's starting pitcher because the guy who should be in there has a mild injury you don't want to aggravate. Sometimes the main guy is just tired from the heat of the dog days.

A very perceptive column and one we should be reminded of when we review games.

[Crash Course]

Thanks Boomer. And, your points above are equally perceptive, IMHO. Thanks.

[rejtable]

It's a nice article, well written and well thought out. :)

Having said that, it does set up a bit of a straw man situation. I realize your point is to say, "the game is bigger than the numbers," but who, really, is arguing otherwise? I don't know anyone in the "stats world" who would argue with any of the fluffy stuff being great.

The batter/pitcher matchup. Watching to see if the legs are twitching on a guy leading off. Pinch hit for the pitcher, or leave him in, watch the manager sweat. Those are all great things, for sure. That's why baseball is the greatest game on earth.

Enjoying the statistical background to baseball does not preclude enjoying all the rest of it. In fact, quite the opposite. If one didn't like the smell of the hotdog, the crack of the bat, the look of a nervous rookie, you wouldn't spend a second trying to figure out how to calculate win shares (for example).

Again, fine article, I'm just saying that the argument that stats alone would be sufficient for someone (and therefore your reminder is necessary) is, I think, empty or, if you prefer, unnecessary. :)

[Crash Course]

Thanks rejtable!

Enjoying the statistical background to baseball does not preclude enjoying all the rest of it.

For some, perhaps. For others, perhaps not.

Just recently in the NDF, we've had some discussions around players like Tony Womack, Neifi Perez, and Carlos Febles - - and the consensus was that, based on the stats on their offense (or lack thereof) they are terrible players. But, if you forget about the stats, and think of them as just players, more so, as human beings who play baseball, you might feel different about them. Are they great hitters? No. But, hitting is hard. Are they interesting players? I'm not sure about Neifi and Carlos - 'tho I recall some Rockie players saying great things about Perez when he was traded, IIRC. But, in the case of Womack, hitting stats aside, he's an interesting player, IMHO. He lost his dad the same year he had the big postseason. He's played many positions - fairly well, He's been on 5 teams now - 6 if you count this ST with the Bosox. He's trying to come back from an injury. There's a lot to appreciate there. But, if you just look at his OWP, OPS, etc., the first reaction for many is "He stinks. He should not be in the big leagues. He adds no value."

[JamesI]

There is a beauty to the game that can not be characterized through stats.

Can anyone look at the stats of one of the great defenders, an Ozzie Smith, Brooks Robinson, Bill Mazeroski, Andruw Jones to name a few and see the amazing plays they made or still make.
Every year a great pitcher gives up a big hit to a "useless" hitter.
Stat arguements are great, I love making them. But they are only a part of the game.
Good column, Steve.

[Crash Course]

Thanks James.
It, the idea, came to me the other day. Like you, I love the stats. In fact, I can get consumed by them sometimes. But, like I said, the other day, I happened to come across a ST game on TV, and just watching a few minutes of the game made me feel so good - even not knowing the players who were playing - because it was a ST game and the inning was in progress. And, it reminded me that just watching people play baseball is something to appreciate.

[cubsin04]

I love stats, when I was a little kid I would study the back of baseball cards. I used to keep track of Ryne Sandberg's & Shawon Dunton's batting averages, because at that time they didn't update them on TV for each at bat, so I would figure them out on a calculator. But nothing is better then just "watching" a game for what it is, the greatest game on the planet.
When I go to a baseball game I get goosebumps just walking into the stadium & smelling the fresh cut grass & hearing the crack of the bat during BP. Baseball is a beautiful game to me even if I wasn't such a stat head.

BTW, great article Steve.

[Crash Course]

Thanks Jason.

Off topic: Your keeping stats story reminded me of something I did in 1989. I ran a fantasy baseball league back then - and this was before the stats services were a plenty - and way before the stat products/services on the internet. I used to copy the player's stats out of TSN, each issue, and then tally them all up - by hand, on paper, with a calculator - to figure out each "team's" stats and the standings. Then I would check it. It took hours to do. I must have been insane! :loud:

On topic: Agreed about the sounds of BP. It's just as good, if not better, than the sounds of the ocean and all those other "sounds" you can buy on a noise machine. ;)

[JamesI]

Off topic: Your keeping stats story reminded me of something I did in 1989. I ran a fantasy baseball league back then - and this was before the stats services were a plenty - and way before the stat products/services on the internet. I used to copy the player's stats out of TSN, each issue, and then tally them all up - by hand, on paper, with a calculator - to figure out each "team's" stats and the standings. Then I would check it. It took hours to do. I must have been insane! :loud:


I used to do that too, every week tallying points to see who won. What a pain.

[rejtable]

For some, perhaps. For others, perhaps not.

Just recently in the NDF, we've had some discussions around players like Tony Womack, Neifi Perez, and Carlos Febles - - and the consensus was that, based on the stats on their offense (or lack thereof) they are terrible players. But, if you forget about the stats, and think of them as just players, more so, as human beings who play baseball, you might feel different about them. Are they great hitters? No. But, hitting is hard. Are they interesting players? I'm not sure about Neifi and Carlos - 'tho I recall some Rockie players saying great things about Perez when he was traded, IIRC. But, in the case of Womack, hitting stats aside, he's an interesting player, IMHO. He lost his dad the same year he had the big postseason. He's played many positions - fairly well, He's been on 5 teams now - 6 if you count this ST with the Bosox. He's trying to come back from an injury. There's a lot to appreciate there. But, if you just look at his OWP, OPS, etc., the first reaction for many is "He stinks. He should not be in the big leagues. He adds no value."

I'm afraid that my point didn't get made properly. All of what you just said is fine. Yes, every ML player is a person, and an extraordinary baseball player relative to everyone else. Sure, many of them have stories. So do you and I though, but that's beside the point.

What I was saying is that being interested in (infatuated even) with stats doesn't mean that person doesn't appreciate all those things you speak about. I repeat: I'd find it extraordinarily hard to believe you can find one so called stats-geek (of which I stand proud ;) ) who doesn't love baseball for all the reasons you mentioned. To get that involved in the statistical aspect of the game, you need to also love it on all other levels. Otherwise you'd build ships in bottles or something to pass your time. ;)

Just because most of the big arguments or discussions are based on data, that doesn't mean that those same people aren't also enjoying the little things.

Again, I think your article is good. I just think that going heavier on the "stopping to smell the roses" side, without really disparraging (sp) data knowledge would have made it more interesting. For me anyway. We all need a stop to smell the roses reminder every now and then. But, pointing it out as if data geeks in particular need reminding of it makes the message far less interesting. Again, if you ask me. :)

[rejtable]

Off topic: Your keeping stats story reminded me of something I did in 1989. I ran a fantasy baseball league back then - and this was before the stats services were a plenty - and way before the stat products/services on the internet. I used to copy the player's stats out of TSN, each issue, and then tally them all up - by hand, on paper, with a calculator - to figure out each "team's" stats and the standings. Then I would check it. It took hours to do. I must have been insane! :loud:

If I may continue the OT:

I did the same thing!! I used to create myself a team of players, and then I'd randomly flip through the boxscores from a cumulative set (from, say USA McWeekly, or TSN, or whatever) and use that team's data as mine. I did everything by hand. I also did the same with Hardball for my Atari ST. I'd keep detailed game data for both the red and the blue team.

<<<<<< nerd. :( ;)

[Crash Course]

I'd find it extraordinarily hard to believe you can find one so called stats-geek (of which I stand proud ;) ) who doesn't love baseball for all the reasons you mentioned. To get that involved in the statistical aspect of the game, you need to also love it on all other levels. Otherwise you'd build ships in bottles or something to pass your time. ;)

Believe it or not, I know a guy who played fantasy baseball for about 15 years. He won his league - often. If you were to hold a gun to his head, and ask him "Is David Wells fat?" or "Is Pedro Martinez small?" or "What race is Gabe White?" or "What round was Todd Van Poppel drafted?" or "What's different about CF in Houston?" he would say "Pull the trigger. I don't know the answer."

Players were just stats to him. He would see the players name, and 20 HRs next to it, and that was his guy. Didn't matter how old the player was - what park he played in - or if he was just coming off an operation. The game was just numbers to him.

I always suspected he was not a baseball fan, really, just a guy who liked the gambling and 'being in a league' action of rotisserie.

Funny to think that a guy who played rotisserie baseball for 15 years is not a baseball fan........anyway, to the point, it is possible for someone to only care about the numbers.

I know at least one guy.

[rejtable]

Believe it or not, I know a guy who played fantasy baseball for about 15 years. He won his league - often. If you were to hold a gun to his head, and ask him "Is David Wells fat?" or "Is Pedro Martinez small?" or "What race is Gabe White?" or "What round was Todd Van Poppel drafted?" or "What's different about CF in Houston?" he would say "Pull the trigger. I don't know the answer."

Players were just stats to him. He would see the players name, and 20 HRs next to it, and that was his guy. Didn't matter how old the player was - what park he played in - or if he was just coming off an operation. The game was just numbers to him.

I always suspected he was not a baseball fan, really, just a guy who liked the gambling and 'being in a league' action of rotisserie.

Funny to think that a guy who played rotisserie baseball for 15 years is not a baseball fan........anyway, to the point, it is possible for someone to only care about the numbers.

I know at least one guy.

Well, I was certainly exaggerating on that point, but touche. If that infinitely small percentage of the world is who you want to hang your hat on, have at it. ;) I certainly won't pretend to know what you were thinking when you wrote it, but there was nothing in there that led me to believe you were talking about a guy who likes to get squirted with Yoohoo so much that he could care less about how fat David Wells is. Also, you said it yourself, it's hard to really call him a fan. A gambler maybe, whatever. The kind of people reading your post aren't those kinds of guys.

If that guy was truly your target audience, then my apologies.

At the end of the day, again, I think the article was good. You write well. I just found that you essentially built a straw man to make your point. Your extreme example doesn't really change my mind, but there are worse crimes in the world. :)

[gyb13]

"Statistics are a lot like a bikini. They show you a lot. But, they don't show you everything."maybe that explains why i like stats so much...the bikinis are a lot smaller in Brasil ;)