Ah, Neckcar! But Is It In Trouble?

[SmedIndy]

Nascar starts in full force this weekend with the Daytona 500. (For some of us, the real racing starts later with the F-1 season, and CART or OWRS, and the IRL - and it could be stated it started last weekend with the 24 Hours at Daytona - but I digress!)

One observation besides the idiotic and convulted "Chase for the Championship" (which won't affect viewership against NFL Football a whit, IMHO) is the number of unsponsored cars I saw try to qualify yesterday. That and the fact there were only 45 cars trying and of those it looked like a few were one-shot deals. Usually for Daytona they have 50 or so.

That has to be a concern for Nascar.

[LeGrandOrange]

I can go ON and ON and ON about NASCAR and sponsorship and other things NASCAR that most people here don't know about. I seem to pay more attention to stock car racing these days even though I vowed never to like it against after the playoff was introduced. (I've done this vowing never to like something a few times with baseball...I'm no good with these promises)

One of my favorite drivers was forced to not even show up to the damn race because he had no sponsor. He had no sponsor last year, and ran very well near the end of the season, outdoing anything Petty Enterprises ever fielded...and STILL can't get a *censored* sponsor. I'm pleading for this in my signature.

Another of my favorite drivers is going to be out of a job after this race because of a lack of sponsorship. Damn you Sirius for bailing on Jimmy Spencer and going to Roger Penske. I hope you get another chance to rough up Kurt Busch.

I think the saddest part about this whole deal is that it's very obvious to a NASCAR fan who the 43 drivers are that are going to make the Great American Race. Usually, there were two or three drivers of reputable skill that missed out. The two that'll miss it here are scrubs.

NASCAR has problems, but they're doing their best to cover it up. Unfortunately, they're alienating a lot of fans in the process. This isn't good. I don't think Nextel had this in mind when they joined the Cup series.

I will not comment on the playoff because I will ramble and be foul-mouthed about it. :)

[sweaver]

There is no perceptible decline in love for NASCAR in this area, but there may be among sponsors. Seems like there are no "stars" since the death of Earnhardt and the decline of Jeff Gordon.

[LeGrandOrange]

Obviously, you haven't tuned into your area enough. A driver that has finished in the top 10 in points for 10 straight years and won a championship three years ago is not in a state of decline. He is merely in a state of being overshadowed by Dale Earnhardt Jr.

There is not a lack of stars. There is a very healthy amount of stars per capita in the sport. What is not healthy is the "other" drivers that aren't going to be as publicized but are still good drivers. Nobody seems to care about those guys anymore.

[TGwynn19]

The real test for NASCAR comes next year when they allow Toyotas to race. Having a non-American car race will not sit well with some of the longtime fans.

[LeGrandOrange]

Trevor, Toyotas are already here, they have 7 Tundras in the Craftsman Truck Series. And there is a fair bit of backlash about it. I haven't read the comments Jimmy Spencer made about it, but he used Pearl Harbor in reference to their entry, apparently.

I'm actually interested in seeing...Camrys or something...appear in Nextel Cup, because there's only three makes in the series and there needs to be extra competition now that Pontiac's out. I don't particularly care where the manufacturer is from. I just know that I'd prefer rooting Fords on.

[Craig S.]

The old points system was great at rewarding consistency, but there's not a lot of enjoyment to be had in watching a guy try to place top-15 in any race. Unfortunately, the solution they came up with is completely idiotic, and will spoil the last part of the season for fans of all but the top drivers. My personal choice would have been a system to that used by CART last season, in which not every driver gets points for a race, and where the winners are justly rewarded. I actually kept track of what NASCAR standings would have been like last year with such a system, but I can't seem to find the file. Anyway, Ryan Newman would have been champ under that system.

As long as the fans continue to support the series (assuming they don't eventually realize that it's far inferior to F-1), I believe the sponsorship problem will work itself out. There are some marketable young racers, and I haven't noticed any drop in support among the fans I know. With good marketing, and fewer bad decisions like the new points system, they'll continue to thrive.

Wow, I made it through a whole post about NASCAR without saying anything offensive about the sport or those associated with it!

[Skip]

Wow, I made it through a whole post about NASCAR without saying anything offensive about the sport or those associated with it!I guess I won't go against your precedent, but will say I just don't much get any of the auto racing series, except (a little bit) F-1. I do think NASCAR's old point system was just what you said Craig, and also agree that this year's fix is not a fix. I just don't much care.

Though - I do plan to try going to Ky Speedway in the next few years just to check a race out in person. (And, I'm still waiting for Smed's invite to the Brickyard ....)

[LeGrandOrange]

Craig, the calibre of drivers is way better in Formula One, but it is NOT better than the Nextel Cup, dammit. How much fun is it when most of the only times you see anyone pass anybody is when someone is being lapped? Besides, it's like a Schumacher wins every other race these days. I'm a fan of Formula One and I stay up late (or early as my schedule dictates) to watch the races live, but I'm watching to see Michael Schumacher or a Renault driver do well, I'm not watching them because the races are interesting, because they really aren't.

The points system really sucks in NASCAR, it has always sucked, and it WILL suck for years to come, but the races are way better. Until the playoff comes along. Stupidest thing to come into auto racing since they added templates. I can't watch those because those races WILL be boring. Or something. (Where the hell is my point?)

Sorry, I'm just very defensive towards NASCAR. Deal. :)

[SmedIndy]

LGO - lets keep this off of F-1. All I want to say is that all racing isn't passing and most of the flat ovals in NASCAR don't offer much action anyway.

Skip - I don't have "Neckyard" tix and don't plan to get them. They're too slow around the track and there's little action, really.

I do think if some races only have 39 or 40 entrants it may be an issue - unless NASCAR actually supports some teams on the sly.

[Skip]

How much fun is it when most of the only times you see anyone pass anybody is when someone is being lapped? That's the only reason why I'm only luke-cool to F-1. If there was more 'racing' or 'passing', I could get into it more. Nascar road courses are similar, but better in that respect.


Skip - I don't have "Neckyard" tix and don't plan to get them. They're too slow around the track and there's little action, really.
I meant Brickyard as venue, not neccessarily that race. If you want to take me to the Indy 500, that'd be great (and that's what I was angling for anyway! :D )

[sweaver]

A driver that has finished in the top 10 in points for 10 straight years and won a championship three years ago is not in a state of decline.

Gordon has come down from where he was for a couple of years, which was status as the Tiger Woods or Barry Bonds of his sport. When most of his pit crew left for other pastures, he was no longer the top dog. And his fan base declined as well.

There is no Michael Jordan in NASCAR right now. And Kyle Petty or Dale Jr. just does not draw in the casual fan, although the diehards love the family connections.

[TGwynn19]

An unintended effect of the points change is now Miami is possibly the most important race of the season since it is last on the schedule. If everything works out like NASCAR wants then there will be 3-4 drivers still alive for the championship.

Even after the horrible experience I had last year at Daytona I might go to Miami if the championship is still up for grabs.

[LeGrandOrange]

Gordon has come down from where he was for a couple of years, which was status as the Tiger Woods or Barry Bonds of his sport. When most of his pit crew left for other pastures, he was no longer the top dog. And his fan base declined as well.

There is no Michael Jordan in NASCAR right now. And Kyle Petty or Dale Jr. just does not draw in the casual fan, although the diehards love the family connections.

I am sending you to the end of the longest line for a non-sensical point. :) You cannot POSSIBLY compare Dale Jr. to Kyle Petty...Petty is no longer a good driver and he's merely a great guy with a great cause. That's why fans like him...his driving ability is non-existant these days. (No offense)

Dale Jr. DOES draw in the casual fan. At least I think he does. He wouldn't have been in two Super Bowl commercials if he didn't have appeal.

Also, to counter your point on Gordon...he still won a championship after most of his pit crew left, assuming you're referring to Ray Evernham's departure. Gordon is still a great driver, but as I said, he isn't as popular because of Dale Jr. He is still one of the best drivers in the sport, and just because we don't publicize him as much does not mean he's declining. Yes, he had the greatest season of the modern era in 1998, just because he hasn't matched that doesn't mean he's any less of a driver. It's just that the rest of the field has caught up.

And one more thing...what exactly would a "Michael Jordan" of his sport have to do? I'm just wondering...I'm not sure what a driver has to do to earn that status. Or, for that matter, why NASCAR needs one.

You know, I might have to black flag myself soon, because I don't really know where I'm going with my opinions.

(BTW, sorry for the F1 criticism...really, I am)

[Skip]

(BTW, sorry for the F1 criticism...really, I am)Heck-fire LGO - your F-1 criticism was the main thing you said I did agree with. Now you are backing off? Ughhhh. I guess it's safe to say we are about as dissimilar on auto racing as we were on NCAA football bowl picks.

No gyb, I'm not going to waste my time finding the stupid link to the stupid NCAA bowl thread to connect here ... that's your job. :p

[pwdennis]

NASCAR has come a long way from the days when it could plausibly stood for North And South Carolina Automobile Racing. The tracks are bigger and better (but, doggone it, I liked the short tracks) and the science behind the sport is greatly advanced.

I am keeping an open mind toward the tinkering that NASCAR has done with the points series until after I've seen it play out for a couple of seasons. It might be an improvement but that remains to be seen. Anyway, kudos to them for trying.

On the subject of F-1 and other racing leagues, I've attended them all and will take NASCAR any day. The fans are more enthusiastic and more knowledgeable, and the racers themselves better understand the importance of the fans to the sport

[SmedIndy]

PW - That's not the impression I get in Indy with F-1. They come from all over and are truly maniacal in their devotion to their drivers and countries. But again, another thread.

[LeGrandOrange]

I haven't a clue what my opinion is in this post so I'm not really sure anymore. :)

I do still have problems with F-1, you just told me to keep off of F-1 so that's why I apologized. Or something.

[SmedIndy]

LGO - that wasn't directed to you.

[ronh]

NASCAR is seeing the same effects that baseball is going through. Less corporate money to go around.

I know that at Jacobs Field the suites are not sold out. A lot of companies went from full season to 1/2 or 1/4 season in the suites.

NASCAR is seeing companies either pull out of sponsoring or sponsoring teams for only part of the year.


The points system needed to be changed. I will wait to see how it plays out.

I'm worried about the switch to softer tires. I'm afraid someone is going to get hurt bad because a tire goes out.

ronh

[SmedIndy]

After today's race - I think there are 4 or 5 teams not going to the next race. On Speedtv.com, they said the car count could be between 36 and 40 all season. Not good.

Plus - it's getting very stratified. At most tracks, only the elite will race to the checker - and I don't call a fight for 12th really racing.

[LeGrandOrange]

I disagree with you there. Scott Wimmer was not a guy I'd have expected to do well, with the dark cloud over his head, and yet he finished third. Every other race, there is a guy you never expect to do well doing well. It's been like this in NASCAR in recent years.

You won't (usually) have complete no-names winning races, but third, fourth, and fifth is prime ground for those guys you don't expect. It is not nearly as bad as it used to be. Only about five drivers used to be capable of winning races in the 1970's, and two of those were only capable when Petty, Pearson, or Yarborough had a problem. There is still parity, it's just that there are certain tracks where you're pretty sure you know who'll race well. But even there, there are surprises. Greg Biffle at the Pepsi 400 for example. He was the weak link to Roush and he beats everyone at Daytona, DEI's new home track.

Also, I'm beginning to not be so sure that short fields are all that bad. I'm not particularly interested in seeing someone like Andy Belmont, a guy who is expected to make the race next week that hasn't raced Cup in 12 years, appearing in a race just so he can fill out a field, get money, and fake a mechanical problem early. Most fans aren't. I'd like to see more full time teams, but I don't want to see NASCAR resorting to paying drivers to appear to pick up last place checks...I'm reading they're wanting to do that sort of thing so they can get 43 starters. I plumb don't like that. Especially because I still won't be able to see Jimmy Spencer or Tony Raines, but I'll instead be forced to see scrubs to be named later.

[Craig S.]

If the racing for the rest of the season resembles Daytona, then I'll end up getting a lot of reading done on Sundays. Maybe I'll just watch the road courses, when I get to watch the drivers use their abilities more than on the deadly boring ovals.

[LeGrandOrange]

Funny, I always thought the road courses were the boring races.
Craig, not ALL races are going to be boring. Ever watch a race on a short track? Nothing boring about those. I agree, this wasn't as exciting of a 500 as it had been in recent years. Save for Michael Waltrip flipping over, the entertainment value wasn't as high as it was in recent years. But my favorite driver did finish second...so that was good.

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one who seems to like NASCAR in this forum, and specifically, am I the only one who likes to watch people race around in circles? I'm getting this vibe here that I'm the only one who does and I'm going to go insane trying to defend the sport very soon...

[SmedIndy]

I like the short tracks and the road courses, but races at Pocono and Michigan and tracks like that are snooze fests. I enjoy open wheel cars on ovals and road courses as well. In fact, open wheel cars anywhere are much more exciting (well, maybe not some street courses).

I also enjoy the 24-hour races at Daytona and LeMans (and the wife lets me watch!)

I don't think there's parity, really, over the long haul. Anyone can have a good result in a race. There's just so many races it seems like there's parity. But the champs and most of the top 20 will come from Roush, DEI, Gibbs, Penske, Ganassi, Hendrick, or Childress.

[ronh]

Just out of curiosity, am I the only one who seems to like NASCAR in this forum, and specifically, am I the only one who likes to watch people race around in circles? I'm getting this vibe here that I'm the only one who does and I'm going to go insane trying to defend the sport very soon...

LGO, I am a NASCAR fan. I used to say that I enjoyed CART the best, but when the IRL started and split everything up, it ruined it for me. Even the Indy 500 last lost its' luster for me.

[LeGrandOrange]

I like the short tracks and the road courses, but races at Pocono and Michigan and tracks like that are snooze fests. I enjoy open wheel cars on ovals and road courses as well. In fact, open wheel cars anywhere are much more exciting (well, maybe not some street courses).

I also enjoy the 24-hour races at Daytona and LeMans (and the wife lets me watch!)

I don't think there's parity, really, over the long haul. Anyone can have a good result in a race. There's just so many races it seems like there's parity. But the champs and most of the top 20 will come from Roush, DEI, Gibbs, Penske, Ganassi, Hendrick, or Childress.

Well, duh! Of course they're going to come from one of those teams. They field 22 of the 36 full time efforts in NASCAR, and I think there are ties from each of the big 8 to maybe 4 or 5 other teams. And you didn't even mention Robert Yates or Ray Evernham's teams. That's 26 plus 4 or 5.

I don't necessarily know what you're considering "parity". You're making it sound like it Derrike Cope has to win a race to make it parity. I mean, there are usually 25-so good drivers in a race who, if they play their cards right, can win a race if Ryan Newman isn't beating them all on fuel mileage. As I said, that is much better than what it used to be in NASCAR...so how is there not parity?

[SmedIndy]

Actually - it's only SOME of those drivers on those teams. For instance, Gordon and Johnson on Hendrick will contend. Labonte will not really contend but could have a nice showing once in a while and the other driver (the rook whose name escapes me) won't. Look at Childress - it's all about Harvick. Gordon will do OK on some tracks and the #30 will be lucky to finish 20th.

There are not 25 drivers that can win. The second or third banana isn't going to do it. CART was very stratified last year - the IRL has been recently as well and of course F-1 is. NASCAR talks a lot about parity but you know that unless its a fluke only about 10 to 12 drivers out of the lot will win the title or will contend in race after race.

[LeGrandOrange]

I can name those 25 drivers if you so desire so I can prove my point. I'll disprove one of yours first.

For example, all four of Hendrick's cars won last year. Terry Labonte was surprisingly competitive a lot of the year, and Joe Nemechek won in a Hendrick machine last year too. Brian Vickers drives the car Joe used to drive, and he's an excellent driver than can win as a rookie.

Also, it is not JUST about Harvick with Richard Childress. Last I checked, Robby Gordon was becoming a good driver on courses where you didn't have to turn right. I agree with the #30 car, Johnny Sauter isn't a good driver. Now, if Tony Raines was in that car...well, I may disagree with your point there. But it is not only about Harvick and the GM Goodwrench car.

Also, you say that the second or third banana isn't going to do it. I must not have said anything about Greg Biffle in this post. He was the 5th man for Roush and he beat everyone at Daytona. I will reiterate that point again if I have to.

There is enough parity in the sport that two drivers won races, raced full seasons, and finished outside of the top 25 and out of the end-of-season bonus money.

I'm torn whether I should agree or disagree with your last sentiment. While my comment about 25 drivers being capable of winning is still accurate IMO, a handful of those drivers will not come close to being good enough for a championship, or more accurately, will not make the playoff this year. On the other hand, I believe it's more than 10 or 12 drivers that are capable.

Smed, what's your idea of parity?

[SmedIndy]

Yes, they all won - some only once. You race 36 times and you'll get fluky wins in there, especially at a track where a team hits the right setup.

Robby Gordon is #2 - and more often than not he'll fight for 15th than have a legitimate chance to win each and every race.

As for Biffle, he's seemingly just a restrictor plate guy. Basically, I ignore results at Daytona and Talledega because of the plates and what they do to the competition. They forcibly bring everyone close together so anything can happen.

Parity or not - you know who's going to be a contender or pretender among the teams. I am sure there are "team orders" as well (just not blatant like F-1).It IS getting more stratified no matter what the spin doctors and the mediots say.

Racing shouldn't be about parity anyway.

[SmedIndy]

In the heyday of CART - with 22 or so cars on the track - you could say that half the field had the chance to win every race. Guys like Deferran, Vassar, Castroneves, Brack, Tracy, Andretti, Fernandez, etc. could step up and win every race. And there were only a couple teams that were just boat anchors.

The IRL is getting somewhat there but the backmarkers are really backmarkers. And in F-1, there's hope for a couple of teams to break the Ferrari / Williams / McLaren troika.

Nascar always says its about parity when only 25% of the drivers at a given track have a legitimate chance to win (depending on the track) AND you have more teams that really are just treading water.

[LeGrandOrange]

THERE IS PARITY IN NASCAR, DAMMIT!!! Maybe if you weren't being so short-sighted, you might actually realize this. And maybe your opinions would make a little bit more sense.

I'm not posting anymore in this thread so I can save myself from anymore frustration.

I apologize for that outburst, Crash. I'm just very frustrated here.

[SmedIndy]

No - there's not parity. Tell me when Schrader's team is going to win? The 23 car? The 77? Casey Mears? What about the 4, or the Foyt team. Or heck, the Wood Brothers? When are the Petty's going to win again? How about the #7, or the #10, etc. In racing, it's not enough to be top 15 or top 20 or however you want to sell it. It's winning - that's all it's about.

I used to think being in the top 10 at the Indy 500 meant that you were a good driver - having seen all but one since 1973 I now you that for the most part if you finished 10th you stayed out of trouble and didn't get in anyones way.

And you keep bringing up Biffle - well - he's driving for Roush, and for qualifying at restrictor plate races I EXPECT them to have the best engine. Of course, that's a different and faux animal than the rest of the season.

This is the problem with NASCAR now - too many expectations and not enough goods. Sponsors are leaving - owners are leaving. Yes, Wimmer can finish 3rd at Daytona and it's a good story, but the CAT team struggles more often than not and I don't think he'll contend very many other times. I've seen enough races to know that if you put yourself in the right place at the right time you can get a good result - and many times that's luck. And I think that was Wimmer's case on Sunday.

[Craig S.]

Funny, I always thought the road courses were the boring races.
Craig, not ALL races are going to be boring. Ever watch a race on a short track? Nothing boring about those.

I can agree with your comments about short track racing. Like road racing, I believe they're a better test of driver skill, and it's not all about the car. I like races where drivers have to slow down pretty severely in turns, and where the opportunity to pass has to be taken advantage of because it doesn't often present itself.

If Nascar raced all season on short tracks and road courses, I'd never miss a race. However, I think people prefer the spectacle of ovals with their always-high speeds and spectacular accidents.