Big Indians-Mets Trade! (Merged Threads)

[willyg]

BOSTON -- All-Star second baseman Roberto Alomar was traded from the Cleveland Indians to the New York Mets on Tuesday as part of an eight-player deal.

New York sent Cleveland outfielder Matt Lawton, outfield prospect Alex Escobar, pitcher Jerrod Riggan and two players to be named in exchange for Alomar and two players to be named, a baseball official familiar with the trade said on the condition he not be identified.

The trade, the first big deal of the winter meetings, was first reported by Newsday on its Web site Tuesday morning.

The deal will be announced at an 11 a.m. ET news conference in Boston.

[willyg]

I like this trade, BIG TIME. Alomar is a big time player, a tremendous player. Being able to pencil him into your lineup ahead of Piazza 150+ times a year is huge.

As for what they gave up, I think you can deal with it, Alomar is that good!

As an aside, yesterday on the FAN I kept hearing about how Edgardo Alfonzo does not want to move to third being that this is his walk year. Well Edgardo now third base is your position, shut up and play!

BUT if he insists on being a pain in the ass, if he talks about how playing at third will hurt his value on the open market one year from today, very simple. Call Ed Wade, offer him, and whatever else it takes and get Scott Rolen.

Although I know that will not happen, Alfonzo is playing third whether he likes it or not, this is a very very good trade for the Metropolitans. Even morso you keep your first base position open for Piazza after next year.

Now get one more pitcher, a big bopper in the outfield, and they can play with the Braves and the Yanks.

[willyg]

As written today in the NY Post:

Finding they had no match for Detroit outfielder Bobby Higginson, and that obtaining Roberto Alomar is an extreme long-shot, the Mets focused yesterday on more feasible possibilities with the likelihood they would finalize a deal to send Matt Lawton to Milwaukee for Jeromy Burnitz.

Once again the Post does not dissapoint!:D

**********
Another bit of my $.02. Look for this Giambi deal to occur very quickly now. The Mets have a press conference at 11am today, I can see the Yankees announcing shortly there after they have reached an agreement with Giambi. George is not going to let the Mets have the back page all to themselves.

[SmedIndy]

But there was one even bigger for us Cubs fans:D

We traded Felix Heredia :mad: for the good Alex Gonzalez :D

[BuzzBuzzard]

I am friggin thrilled.

[SmedIndy]

Good for Mets fans, but is the Cleveland empire going to crumble now? Are they done? Is this the white flag?

Wouldn't it be great if the Twins won the AL Central?

[BuzzBuzzard]

As Mets fans, we've been hearing all about Escobar as the future, but he showed little last year. Riggan, I thought, developed nicely. Regardless, it is a trade for today from the Met perspective. It is a win now trade.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
As Mets fans, we've been hearing all about Escobar as the future, but he showed little last year. Riggan, I thought, developed nicely. Regardless, it is a trade for today from the Met perspective. It is a win now trade.

I understand that. I still would like to know if this is the beginning of the end for Cleveland? Are the Tribe content now to scuffle along with the Tigers and Royals?

It really boggles my mind now. Alomar is still relatively young and can be an anchor at second base for a while. I wonder who the PTBNLs are.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
It really boggles my mind now. Alomar is still relatively young and can be an anchor at second base for a while. I wonder who the PTBNLs are. 34 at the beginning of the upcoming season is not over the hill, but I don't know if relatively young is an appropriate label either.

As for your ? on the Indians, I was not trying to address that, but making a general statement on the trade from the Met perspective. However, if Escobar is a good as billed, and Riggan is young and improving.

[RichG]

Willyg,

Funny, I immediately wondered when the Yanks would announce Giambi to get back into the limelight but I figured George would wait until tomorrow toget the 'momentum' back.

I was listening to WFAN and I've already heard one Met fan complain. Unbelievable! I wonder what the Indians will do at 2B. Before I heard the players involved I thought Alfonzo would be going back or, at the minimum, Relaford.

Rich



Originally posted by willyg

Another bit of my $.02. Look for this Giambi deal to occur very quickly now. The Mets have a press conference at 11am today, I can see the Yankees announcing shortly there after they have reached an agreement with Giambi. George is not going to let the Mets have the back page all to themselves. ;)

[Yogi#8Fan]

Even I will admit being thrilled, despite having desired seeing Alomar in pinstripes (Soriano could move back to the OF).

I'm wondering with the loss of Manny, Roberto and Juan Gone, they'll do like Seattle and come back stronger after having lost Jr, Unit and A-Rod.

Buzz, I predict you'll have a new avatar very shortly once the pictures are taken.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Buzz, I predict you'll have a new avatar very shortly once the pictures are taken. I am more fickle than that.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
I am more fickle than that. More? Don't you mean less? Anyway, I figured your present one was tailor-made for you, so no rush. Anyway, not on topic, so let me stop and enjoy your new 2B-man.

BTW, this is a 2-year deal?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
More? Don't you mean less? Anyway, I figured your present one was tailor-made for you, so no rush. Anyway, not on topic, so let me stop and enjoy your new 2B-man.

BTW, this is a 2-year deal? Yes, less fickle would have been more accurate.

As for the deal, as I understand it, Alomar's contract has a team option for 2003, so I believe 2 years is correct.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Yes, less fickle would have been more accurate.

As for the deal, as I understand it, Alomar's contract has a team option for 2003, so I believe 2 years is correct. That's good they took an option. This "rent-a-player" is a one year deal. (I think the Mets took a major risk in Piazza like this before he was eventually signed for 7 years)

I understand Robbie was a FA after 2002 anyway, so I get the feeling he might've been their latest "Juan Gone" so at least they'd gotten Escobar the Untouchable and Lawton in return. I've heard the Mets will move Edgardo Alfonso (spl) to 3B to replace Ventura.

I don't know the history of 2B-man moving to 3B (SS to 3B seems to work (see Cal Ripken, Jr)), but I guess the Mets will take their chances as to the end result. Good luck on your more competitive team.

[b-ball-lunachik]

I think this is a good move for the Mets...and more importantly so does Doris ;) -- she just called in to FAN and was quite excited...how is it that you guys get Doris who at least makes sense and we get Jerome? :D

Phillips sounded positively thrilled and the Indians guy sounded resigned to it...I didn't see Escobar do much when he came up and who knows how that would have panned out...Lawton should be happy being back in the AL...will be interesting to see if the Mets keep Justice now or trade him...because they do need prospects -- they didn't have much in the farm, and now they have less....

Anyway, a few questions for Buzz or anyone...

-- what is the deal with Alfonzo's health? was it just the back last year or was it other things? I can't remember now...also, is the back problem chronic or serious? I know he is not thrilled about playing third but will it be harder to play it with the back?


-- will they consider moving Zeile back to third, leave Alfonzo at second and either get someone to play first (either from the minors or signing and spell Piazza a few games there)....I think I'd rather that option then have Edgardo reluctantly switch positions...I thought i remembered him having a huge problem switching spots in the batting order -- and while most ballplayers are superstitious - - he seems to be more so...

Nice defense up the middle with Ordonez and Alomar, huh?

[sweaver]

Because the New York-centricity of this site is sometimes annoying.....

This looks like another step in the dismantling of the Indians, dumping payroll. Of course, they have done it before, with Sir Albert, Manny and more. The question is, who goes to second? They may have a free agent (Eric Young? ewwww!) in mind. Of course, this is the rebuilding of the outfield, with Lawton joining Milton Bradley. I don't see it as a step in the right direction.

[sweaver]

I think it's a good move for the Mets, but I believe Alomar's option is a player option...could be wrong. Can't believe the Mets couldn't get him signed if they tried. Opens up another hole in the outfield, is a Gonzalez signing in the offing?

[BuzzBuzzard]

If ESPN is reliable, it is a team option.

Alomar, a 10-time Gold Glove who has also played for San Diego, Toronto and Baltimore, gets $8 million next season and his contract contains an $8 million team option for 2003.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by b-ball-lunachik
-- what is the deal with Alfonzo's health? was it just the back last year or was it other things? I can't remember now...also, is the back problem chronic or serious? I know he is not thrilled about playing third but will it be harder to play it with the back?


-- will they consider moving Zeile back to third, leave Alfonzo at second and either get someone to play first (either from the minors or signing and spell Piazza a few games there)....I think I'd rather that option then have Edgardo reluctantly switch positions...I thought i remembered him having a huge problem switching spots in the batting order -- and while most ballplayers are superstitious - - he seems to be more so...

Nice defense up the middle with Ordonez and Alomar, huh? It was just the back last year. As with any back problem, it could quite easily become both cronic and serious, but last year was the first time it bothered him. Apparently, he stayed in NY this off season as opposed to going home to Venezuela for conditioning purposes, and if you believe what he says, he's fine and ready to go.

Unless they trade Alfonzo, he is the 3rd baseman. While he did say last week he prefers not to move, he didn't say he wouldn't move. Could be a marketing play to to get the Mets to pony up now since this is a contract year for him. Who knows? He did come up as a 3b, so this is not totally new to him.

Personally, I don't know what their next move will be, but I don't think they are done yet. There is absolutely no one to bat lead off and that includes the fat F who sometimes plays LF.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Side B: what prospects do the Mets now have? With Lawton gone, they're in need of an OF-er so I'm wondering if they've got anyone to trade for.

[SmedIndy]

I think it all depends on Escobar and Riggen. How they pan out vs. how long Alomar stays a Met.

We need more representation West of the Alleghenys. Viva le Resistance!

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Side B: what prospects do the Mets now have? With Lawton gone, they're in need of an OF-er so I'm wondering if they've got anyone to trade for. Well, they don't NEED an OF, but there is room for improvement. The reason I say they don't need one is they still have 5; Justice, Payton, Benny, Shinjo, and Timo Perez.

As I say, I would not want a regular OF to consist of any permutation of the 5, but if they choose to, they could go with these 5 and be covered.

[Goose]

I gotta believe that Alfonzo gets dealt. They could get quite a bit for him.....

As far as Mets fans calling the FAN and complaining? It's amazing really...this is a HOF player and they're worrying about Alfonzo's feelings.....:rolleyes:

[b-ball-lunachik]

Alomar is on the FAN right now for anyone who can listen in...

[Duque]

This helps out both teams, but might actually work to the Indians favor depending on who the PTBNL are. I don't think Escobar will amount to much, but Riggan is a good middle relief guy, and if they can get, say, a Billy Traber or Aaron Heilman, they've basically raided the Mets upper level prospects. Course, in the short term, the advantage has to go to the Mets.

[Duque]

Guess the reason it's being portrayed as more of a Mets trade is that it immediately helps the Mets in the short term - gives them a guy who can lead off, hit #2 or #3, play great defense, etc. Depending on who else the Tribe gets, though, it could help them rebuild long-term. Lawton is great at getting on-base, but they really could use another slugger on that team. Jim Thome's about the only one left.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Well, they don't NEED an OF, but there is room for improvement. The reason I say they don't need one is they still have 5; Justice, Payton, Benny, Shinjo, and Timo Perez.

As I say, I would not want a regular OF to consist of any permutation of the 5, but if they choose to, they could go with these 5 and be covered.

With those "five" it looks like you need about three or four that can really play the game and not be just a sideshow, or platoon guy, or worthless, or all three combined.

[SmedIndy]

I suppose that Tribe fans are howling right now. However, they may not have had a choice, and it's way too early to see how the trade pans out. If Alomar lasts just a year or two, and one of the prospects becomes a long term guy, then that's a plus.

I think it was Gary Sheffield that was traded to Florida for Trevor Hoffman, and Padres fan was outraged. Well, do you think Sheff would have stayed with the Padres?

[MountainMet]

1972 Jim Fregosi
1982 George Foster
1992 Bobby Bonilla
2002 Roberto Alomar

Another 34 year old for a team that needs to get younger.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Alomar trade makes Mets, Indians better (http://www.sportingnews.com/voices/ken_rosenthal/20011211.html)

BOSTON -- At the 1990 winter meetings, the Blue Jays acquired Roberto Alomar and Joe Carter from the Padres for Tony Fernandez and Fred McGriff. Alomar was the best player in the trade, and the Jays went on to win back-to-back World Series.

Eleven years later, Alomar is again part of a winter-meetings blockbuster.

[snip]

[sweaver]

Originally posted by MountainMet
1972 Jim Fregosi
1982 George Foster
1992 Bobby Bonilla
2002 Roberto Alomar

Another 34 year old for a team that needs to get younger.

Ha! Cool chart from the new guy! (Who isn't me, at last)

The difference here is, the other guys were mostly slow power hitters (Fregosi was an aging SS acquired to play third, but a power hitter nonetheless) while Alomar still has his skills. I think the pitcher the Mets got will help this year, either as a 4/5 starter or in middle relief.

Tim Kirkjian says the Indians will go with Jolbert Cabrera at second. That could be dangerous. For the Indians.

[TGwynn19]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
I suppose that Tribe fans are howling right now. However, they may not have had a choice, and it's way too early to see how the trade pans out. If Alomar lasts just a year or two, and one of the prospects becomes a long term guy, then that's a plus.

I think it was Gary Sheffield that was traded to Florida for Trevor Hoffman, and Padres fan was outraged. Well, do you think Sheff would have stayed with the Padres?


Me being the biggest, and only, Padre fan on this board i will say i wish the Pads would have kept Sheffield.

[Skipper Steve]

When was the last time that my first post to a thread was the 33rd post in the thread? Boy, did I pick the wrong day to be in meetings for 6 hours!

First, my reaction to the deal.

When I heard it, I nearly drove off the road. Then, I called Buzz and left several screams into his v-mail. Then, I called someone on my team at work, who is a HUGE Tribe fan, to offer condolences.

For the Mets, this is the Seaver deal in reverse. Now, I have to keep asking myself - - what is the deal with Alomar? The guy, by his play, is probably the 4th or 5th best 2B in the history of baseball. How does a guy THAT GREAT switch teams 5 times in a 13 year period? I'm sorry, but, I'm beginning to think there's some baggage there, perhaps?

Originally posted by sweaver
Because the New York-centricity of this site is sometimes annoying.....

Com'on sweaver, there's maybe 3 or 4 in the whole forum that think the Mets/Yanks is the center of the baseball universe. There are many, many more that, no matter who their fav is, look at the big picture.

Originally posted by MountainMet
1972 Jim Fregosi
1982 George Foster
1992 Bobby Bonilla
2002 Roberto Alomar

Another 34 year old for a team that needs to get younger.

:thumb: One of the greatest 1st posts ever - - nice job. Mt. Met.

The symmetry on that mother is scary:

Ten years on 1972-1982.
Ten years on 1992-2002.
Fregosi and Foster start with F.
Bobby and Robby. All years end in a two. The age. It goes INF-OF, OF - INF. Wow!

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
It was just the back last year. As with any back problem, it could quite easily become both cronic and serious, but last year was the first time it bothered him. Apparently, he stayed in NY this off season as opposed to going home to Venezuela for conditioning purposes, and if you believe what he says, he's fine and ready to go.

Unless they trade Alfonzo, he is the 3rd baseman. While he did say last week he prefers not to move, he didn't say he wouldn't move. Could be a marketing play to to get the Mets to pony up now since this is a contract year for him. Who knows? He did come up as a 3b, so this is not totally new to him.

Personally, I don't know what their next move will be, but I don't think they are done yet. There is absolutely no one to bat lead off and that includes the fat F who sometimes plays LF.

thanks for the info Buzz...time will tell on the back I guess...backs are funny and always seem to become chronic...for his sake and Met fans, I hope not...

as for my other scenario with moving Zeile to third, I apologize...I realized later where would Alomar play? I've been running a fever since last night and I chalk it up to delirium...I'm going back to sleep now... :D

[Goose]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
How does a guy THAT GREAT switch teams 5 times in a 13 year period I'm sorry, but, I'm beginning to think there's some baggage there, perhaps??



Well in reverse, the Indians are dumping salary, he went to Cleveland as a free agent, no? to play with his brother?

I don't remember off the top of my head how he left to go to Baltimore but wasn't it just that he was making too much money and Toronto didn't want to pay it(something they do very often I may add)

I could be wrong though......any corrections?

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
How does a guy THAT GREAT switch teams 5 times in a 13 year period? I'm sorry, but, I'm beginning to think there's some baggage there, perhaps?2002 was his walk year and the Tribe probably figured might as well get something for him now, or he'd be another Juan Gone. After losing Manny and Juan Gonzalez in consecutive years, the Indians probably didn't figure on being in the same situation as the Mariners w/Griffey, Unit and A-Rod, also in consecutive years.

As to Alomar's personal baggage, I can't tell you offhand. Someone else may offer insight in the AM.

[jpalexa]

Hasn't one got to think that the Indians are maneuvering to improve their pitching staff by freeing up a little salary and getting a pitching prospect (or two or more, ultimately, perhaps?)? Offense, they have to spare -- even without Alomar. I believe it is their pitching that has let them down -- especially in the post-season when their offense gets shut down by better opposing pitching.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
2002 was his walk yearNot true. He only walks if the Indians wanted him to walk. They had a club option for 2003. Financial consideration aside, which is the basis of the trade altoghether, for $8M in 2003, he's a bargain.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by jpalexa
Hasn't one got to think that the Indians are maneuvering to improve their pitching staff by freeing up a little salary and getting a pitching prospect (or two or more, ultimately, perhaps?)? Offense, they have to spare -- even without Alomar. I believe it is their pitching that has let them down -- especially in the post-season when their offense gets shut down by better opposing pitching.

Other than Thome, now, where's their offense? Not at C, 2B, SS, 3B, or the OF - - they do not have a bat, besides Thome, that cannot be pitched to and gotten out, IMHO.

Originally posted by Goose
Well in reverse, the Indians are dumping salary, he went to Cleveland as a free agent, no? to play with his brother?

I don't remember off the top of my head how he left to go to Baltimore but wasn't it just that he was making too much money and Toronto didn't want to pay it(something they do very often I may add)

Goose, he did go to Baltimore and Cleveland as a FA. Still, while it was his choice, because he is so good, you still wonder how his team would let that happen - - FA, or no FA. There have been many great players who became FAs and their team just refused to lose them by giving them what they wanted - plus some more. Seems TOR and BAL were just happy to let him go - or, at the least, they didn't put up a fight.

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Financial consideration aside, which is the basis of the trade altoghether, for $8M in 2003, he's a bargain.

Agreed Buzz - - at $8, he's a steal. That's about what the Mets were paying Ventura.

I just saw in an AP report - - and this could now all just be spin control by the Tribe - - that Alomar and Charlie Manuel did not get along - - as Alomar questioned many of Charlie's moves. It will be interesting to see how he and Bobby V. get along

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Other than Thome, now, where's their offense? Not at C, 2B, SS, 3B, or the OF - - they do not have a bat, besides Thome, that cannot be pitched to and gotten out, IMHO.

Fair enough. Let me re-spin. Maybe the Indians have finally realized my favorite, oft-rehashed observation: Generally, better-than-average pitching and average offense wins you more games (especially in the post-season) than better-than-average offense and average pitching. (Okay, so in reality, you actually need better-than-average in both categories...but my gut tells me that pitching is a tad more important.)

I think the Indians can afford to fall a notch or two offensively *if* they bring their pitching up three or four notches. However, I do concede that the Tribe may have lost *too* much offense already....

[Goose]

A Dolan bought the Indians. To me, thats all that I need to know. A Dolan bought Madison Square Garden and immediately ran the Knicks and Rangers into the ground. It may not be the same guy, but they're brothers and obviously doing business the same way.

I can see Cleveland dumping lotsa salary and picking none of it back up and finishing in 3rd next year.




Steve, as far as Alomar and his leaving as a free agent, I see what you are saying....Baltimore though as much money as they like to spend knew he wanted to go play with his brother. Toronto I don't know if they ever really displayed that they are willing to pay a big salary.......they dealt Shawn Green after his big year, and now have all kinds of rumors floating around Delgado cause no one believes they'll pay out the rest of his contract.....

Who knows.......it'll play out in NY.....you know there is no way that it stays a secret if he's some kinda cancer in the clubhouse in NY

[BuzzBuzzard]

Tell me how bat lead off for the Mets and I am starting to dream:

1) Lead off
2) Alfonzo (R)
3) Alomar (S)
4) Piazza (R)
5) Justice (L) (I am suddenly warming up to the guy)
6) Zeile (R) (Not ideal 6 guy, but I can live with it)

[willyg]

Originally posted by Goose
I don't remember off the top of my head how he left to go to Baltimore but wasn't it just that he was making too much money and Toronto didn't want to pay it(something they do very often I may add)
I want to say free agent as well. He spent three years in San Diego, then was traded to Toronto. During his time there he signed a deal taking him a year or two past FA, then signed a 3 for 18 mil deal with Balitimore, then 4 years for 32 with Cleveland.

[willyg]

Signed as non-drafted free agent by San Diego Padres organization (February 16, 1985).

Traded by Padres with OF Joe Carter to Toronto Blue Jays for 1B Fred McGriff and SS Tony Fernandez (December 5, 1990).

Granted free agency (October 30, 1995). ... Signed by Baltimore Orioles (December 21, 1995). ...

Granted free agency (October 26, 1998). ... Signed by Cleveland Indians (December 1, 1998).

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Tell me how bat lead off for the Mets and I am starting to dream:

1) Lead off
2) Alfonzo (R)
3) Alomar (S)
4) Piazza (R)
5) Justice (L) (I am suddenly warming up to the guy)
6) Zeile (R) (Not ideal 6 guy, but I can live with it)

Why wouldn't you bat Alomar lead off. He gets on base a lot more than some of the OF bums the Mets are carrying.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
5) Justice (L) (I am suddenly warming up to the guy)


Sweet - - a few days ago, you labeled him as "broken" - - "amazing" (no pun intended) what a coat of orange and blue will do to spruce up a player for you, huh?

Two more things on the Alomar deal - - -

1. He can ask for a trade after 2002, so, the club option is now negated to an extent, and
2. This really is starting to make me think - - - the package that the Mets gave up - - I have to think that at least 6 teams could have matched or bettered that offer to the Tribe - - - does this mean that they know more about Alomar than we do?

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Sweet - - a few days ago, you labeled him as "broken" - - "amazing" (no pun intended) what a coat of orange and blue will do to spruce up a player for you, huh?
The proof will be in the pudding. I am fantasing right now about what he 'could' do. When he plays 100 games next year and proves me rightn from my original reaction, I will give you the 'I told you so' routine. I am letting my enjoyment of the Alomar deal distract me from what I really think of DJ.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Why wouldn't you bat Alomar lead off. He gets on base a lot more than some of the OF bums the Mets are carrying. Hadn't thought about it and I guess you could, but I think that wasted his bat a little. I'd rather have him in a position to knock in 100 as opposed to stealing 40. But it is a viable option, without question.

My gut tells me Cedeno will be batting lead off.

[SmedIndy]

The point is not to have someone steal 40 or knock in 100, but to make sure your best on-base guy is leading off. You score more runs that way. I'd alwaysthought the Cubs should lead off Mark Grace backin the day, because he gets on base.

If Cedeno can return to his .380 OBPS, then that makes sense, but if he repeats his numbers from Detroit he should bat seventh so not to clog up the offense.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Well, if OBA is the criteria, Agbayani is no worse than Alomar. Over there careers, which have very dissimilar lenghts, the difference in OBA is .006.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Not true. He only walks if the Indians wanted him to walk. They had a club option for 2003. Financial consideration aside, which is the basis of the trade altoghether, for $8M in 2003, he's a bargain. I can't doubt your knowledge on current events, especially after your posts above to Luna. I hadn't realized the guy was only $8M. That's what Robin used to make but here you get a first tier 2B-man at a second or third tier player's price. Fickle or no fickle, I'd be getting a new avatar if I were you, even if it had Chief Wahoo on his cap. ;)

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
I can't doubt your knowledge on current events, Maybe I don't know squat. Based upon Skippy's previous post, it seems Alomar can demand a trade after 2002. Who knows?

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Maybe I don't know squat. Based upon Skippy's previous post, it seems Alomar can demand a trade after 2002. Who knows? Maybe just an "only me" thing but I figured if a club had an option on someone, the player couldn't demand a trade. I thought it was written in stone, the player is married to the team unless the team demands a divorce, declines the option.

I feel the whole Piazza scenario running anew. The Mets took a great chance with him, since they gave up players and a few prospects I think to get him and he was only on a 1-year deal, could've returned to Lasorda afterwards. To me, the real playing of the cards is not this deal, but if he performs well (which I'm hoping he does), can Steve Phillips and Fred Wilpon keep him afterwards. Even if the Mets make it to the NLCS and possibly the WS, Robby has a big part in this, his price would've risen by then so we'll see.

[Yogi#8Fan]

http://www.baseballreference.com/a/alomaro01.shtml

14 Seasons
G - 2,034
AB - 7,796
R - 1,341
H - 2,389
HR - 190
RBI - 1018
SB - 446
CS - 106
BB - 902
IBB - 55
SO - 949
BA - .306
OBP - .378
SLG - .455
TB - 3549

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Well, if OBA is the criteria, Agbayani is no worse than Alomar. Over there careers, which have very dissimilar lenghts, the difference in OBA is .006.

Well, it is my key, but in looking at both I'd still lead off Robbie over Benny. Is Benny going to play every day?

[BuzzBuzzard]

I hope not.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
Maybe just an "only me" thing but I figured if a club had an option on someone, the player couldn't demand a trade. I thought it was written in stone, the player is married to the team unless the team demands a divorce, declines the option.

Player with 6 years, traded during a multi-year deal, has a right to ask for a trade the next year.

[Goose]

He can definitely demand a trade at the end of the season, but if you heard his interview on the FAN yesterday, he sounded like a guy excited to be going to the Mets....

They should be able to lock him up......

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Goose
He can definitely demand a trade at the end of the season, but if you heard his interview on the FAN yesterday, he sounded like a guy excited to be going to the Mets....

He hasn't hit in Shea yet.

Alomar's average season is around 15-80-.300 - - - - and, he's had the benefit of playing in some hitter friendly parks.

Say Shea knocks his numbers down to:

13-60-.295

In NY, he'll begin to hear a lot of crap for that, based on the expectation many have that he'll hit 20-100-.330 - - - he may not want to stick around?

[willyg]

.290 13 60?

I think you are being a little rough, this guy will have Mike Piazza hitting behind him.

.320 15 95

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Player with 6 years, traded during a multi-year deal, has a right to ask for a trade the next year. Thanks, I hadn't realized this. As to your other point that he hasn't played in Shea yet, perhaps during interleague. He's probably played there at one time or another but I'm not sure. Anyway, here's an analytical article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/john_donovan/news/2001/12/11/indians/

A rookie gamble
Indians' new GM trades away Alomar, faces fans' wrath

Sometimes, during the big wheel-and-deal crapshoot called the winter meetings, it's hard enough just trying to find your hotel room without tripping over an assorted general manager, a stray agent or two and all those pesky little reporters crowding the lobby. Never mind actually working a trade.

But in his first trip to the meetings as the guy in charge, Mark Shapiro, the neophyte general manager of the Cleveland Indians, seems to have general managed his way around just fine. Tuesday morning -- very, very early Tuesday morning -- he sidestepped everyone and pulled off the shocker of the meetings.

[snip]

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by willyg
.290 13 60?

I think you are being a little rough, this guy will have Mike Piazza hitting behind him.

.320 15 95 I was going to suggest that, but it is much more effective coming from a non-Mets fan.

[willyg]

No problem Buzz. Although you are a Met fan :rolleyes:, you are a blueshirt fan as well. I got your back. :thumb:

[SmedIndy]

Argh! Now TWO reasons to dislike Buzz.

:p

First the Mutts, now the Strangers. EEK!:p

Go Cubs! Go Sens and Flames :D

[willyg]

Flames? (I know Skippy is going to give me the :topic: )but I can take him :twogn: who the heck was a Flames fan before this year?

Anyway back to the Mets, I like this trade, I like Alomar, I think he will be around for a few years.

[Goose]

Actually Shea should HELP Alomar's numbers....

He's a gap hitter....Shea is bigger than the Jake and there will be more hits to the alleys....

His homeruns are mistakes.....

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by willyg
I know Skippy is going to give me the :topic: ) but I can take him :twogn:

Take me where? To the hot dog stand to buy me a soda? ;)

Back to Alomar - - in the last 6 years, his averages (BA/OBA/SLG) are:

.318 - .394 - .499

Trust me, those are not going to go higher playing 81 games at Shea - - no matter who is hitting behind him.

[willyg]

Fine they will not go higher, but you've got to admit this guy is not only getting 13 jacks with 60 RBI's. And if he does put up those numbers it will be because he hits leadoff.

Maybe that is the issue here. If he hits leadoff, I can see .300 13 65 or whatever you said, but if he hits three, in front of Piazza, .320 15 100.

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by willyg
Flames? (I know Skippy is going to give me the :topic: )but I can take him :twogn: who the heck was a Flames fan before this year?



Well, I was. Course I'm as much a hockey geek as baseball geek, and I have Flames game worns for Frank Musil and Dan Keczmer, who I saw play in the IHL when I was official scorer for the Indianapolis Ice.


Some of us aren't bandwagoneers, ya know.
:D

I know...:warn: :topic:

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by willyg
If he hits leadoff, I can see .300 13 65 or whatever you said, but if he hits three, in front of Piazza, .320 15 100.

In the history of the NY Mets - - - all of it - - 39 seasons, and that's a lot, they have only had SIX - yes, six (!) - batters who have managed an average of .320 or better (in 502+ PA).

The ballpark, Shea, has a lot to do with that.

In fact, only 23 times has a Met batter had a .300 average or better for a whole season (with 502+ PA).

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by willyg
Fine they will not go higher, but you've got to admit this guy is not only getting 13 jacks with 60 RBI's. And if he does put up those numbers it will be because he hits leadoff.

Maybe that is the issue here. If he hits leadoff, I can see .300 13 65 or whatever you said, but if he hits three, in front of Piazza, .320 15 100.

But his .300 13 65 as a leadoff man will be much more valuable because he may score 120 or 130 runs. If the Mutts put a dog in leadoff he may not get 100 RBI anyway.

[Goose]

How many years did they have 2 hitters the calibre of Alomar/Piazza hitting back to back?

[SmedIndy]

Adjusted for the time and park, I would Hernandez / Strawberry was pretty effective. Also Cleon Jones and Agee, but they didn't bat back to back. Well, Kranepool/Clendenon and Jones, perhaps.

Again, that's adjusted for the era.

[Skipper Steve]

Another note on what Alomar could have to deal with at Shea:

Dodger Stadium is known as a pitcher's park - - -

Piazza, in 726 games as a Dodger, hit .331.
Piazza, in 527 games as a Met, has hit .317.

Probably safe to say that Shea will cost Alomar at least 15 points on his BA.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Probably safe to say that Shea will cost Alomar at least 15 points on his BA. You are making some big leaps there, my friend.

[SmedIndy]

Also, Robby plays much younger, but there's a chance he may start to show his age.

Side note - isn't he still dating Mary Pierce??

[SmedIndy]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
You are making some big leaps there, my friend.

Shea does favor pitchers over hitters, but I wouldn't use Piazza as a benchmark. Other factors can change a BA over time and a .015 drop isn't overly significant.

According to Baseball Reference.com Dodger Stadium and Qualcomm both affected hitters more than Shea, and those were the only two I looked up.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Side note - isn't he still dating Mary Pierce?? I sure hope not, for his sake.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by SmedIndy
Side note - isn't he still dating Mary Pierce??

I thought they were engaged?

[Yogi#8Fan]

Someone sent this board's URL to me and it's from a Cleveland Indians fan:

http://www.hostboard.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=&number=757

In case anyone's interested, perhaps they can ask, since the trade is being hotly discussed there also. It looks like the same registration and username, password process as here.

_________________________________
I read the following article in the Newark Star-Ledger, discusses Robby's past, player development:

Mets: A star is born -- then matures into a superstar (http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/sports/ledger/1547871.html)

12/12/01

BY DAVID WALDSTEIN
STAR-LEDGER STAFF

When Roberto Alomar was a 5-year-old boy, his father, Sandy, was Bobby Valentine's teammate on the 1973 California Angels. Valentine used to play catch in the clubhouse with the precocious ballplayer and saw the first hints of a burgeoning talent, even at that young age.

A year later a Cardinals scout was down in Puerto Rico during the winter league and saw Roberto playing pepper. He turned to Sandy Alomar Sr. and asked, "Can I sign him now?"

[snip]

[willyg]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
He hasn't hit in Shea yet.

Alomar's average season is around 15-80-.300 - - - - and, he's had the benefit of playing in some hitter friendly parks.

Say Shea knocks his numbers down to:

13-60-.295

In NY, he'll begin to hear a lot of crap for that, based on the expectation many have that he'll hit 20-100-.330 - - - he may not want to stick around?

Now that I gave myself a plug for being on with Soriano, now I'll give the boss one for having called Alomar. I'll save some of us by not mentioning our predictions.

.275 10 50 right now.

On pace for .275 12 61, that Skipper guys knows something! :D

[Skip]

Thanks ... oh crap, wrong Skipper. Darn. Well, I ... uhhh ... know something too!

[gyb13]

Originally posted by Skip
Thanks ... oh crap, wrong Skipper. Darn. Well, I ... uhhh ... know something too!
skip, being potty-trained will only get you so far in a baseball board :D

[CpUltravox]

A friend called me the other day from Metropolitan land - and said "Boy, we sure didn't get very much for Matt Lawton, Alex Escobar, and Billy Traber."

"Yes, but we didn't get much for Alomar, either"

Hindsight... funny thing.

[Max Power]

Willyg - thanks for the props!
And, they all laughed when.............