Clemens Unretires - Signs With Astros [Archive]

TimmyB

01-09-2004, 01:11 PM

Unlike many Sox fans, I still kinda like... well... no... respect... um... well...

Oh, I dunno. As long as he's not playing in the AL East, what do I care? The guy still has gas in the tank, so, sure. Let him go so more if he wants. Of course, I'm sure he much rather would have pitched in the Astrodome instead of Minute Maid. (That is what the re-named Enron, right?)

Wolf Hopper

01-09-2004, 01:12 PM

gyb13

01-09-2004, 03:30 PM

a guy's allowed to change his mind

satchel

01-09-2004, 03:51 PM

a guy's allowed to change his mind
cf. Michael Jordan.

RedSeat

01-09-2004, 04:03 PM

Obviously, it's his choice.

But, FWIW, IMHO, if he were to comeback, he would lose the respect of many because of the semi-farewell circus that he had last year (as a result of him insisting that 2003 would be his last year).
Would seem to fit his character. This is the same guy who said he would only pitch for Boston or for either Texas team. He lost the respect of many then, too.

RedSeat

01-12-2004, 12:20 PM

Buster Olney is saying it's official.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1706367
Clemens has agreed to a one-year contract that will pay the six-time Cy Young Award winner about $5 million to play next season, Houston television station KRIV reported Monday.

A source speaking on condition of anonymity said Clemens agreed to a contract Sunday.
And another city learns what happens when you take Clemens at his word.

hopbitters

01-12-2004, 12:40 PM

Add another layer to the HoF cap arguments.

Roger deserves a lot of respect for his playing ability. As a person, well, he hasn't done anything particularly heinous that I know of, but I can't stand the way he equivocates on just about every issue that he gets pressed on. If you're not sure, how hard is it to say, "I am retiring unless some extraordinary circumstance arises that would allow me to continue competing and still spend a significant amount of time with my family" or pretty much anything other than repeatedly signing the refrain for "Never Going Back Again"?

KCBOOMER

01-12-2004, 12:47 PM

This is not that big a deal to me one way or the other. He had fulfilled his contractual obligations to all other parties and owed them nothing.

No player is really retired, regardless of the rhetoric, until no team wants him.

WiredTiger

01-12-2004, 01:10 PM

I think if I was a Yankee fan I would be pretty upset right now. New York has been nothing but good to him and he repays them by blasting them about Pettite and then signing with the Astros.

Wolf Hopper

01-12-2004, 01:54 PM

I think if I was a Yankee fan I would be pretty upset right now. New York has been nothing but good to him and he repays them by blasting them about Pettite and then signing with the Astros.

Forget Yankee fans - baseball fans, in many cities, should be a tad ticked.

Everyone who gave him a standing "farewell" O in his last start at Fenway, everyone in Florida who have him a standing "O" in his "last game" in Game 4 of the 2003 WS, everyone who gave him the "goodbye" anywhere..............

Granted, this was probably a deal too good to say no to - - being so close to home and all - - - but, sometimes, when a man gives his word, you then need to pass things up to live up to your word.........

Clemens could have avoided this by not being so stern in his "this is it" answers to the questions, all year last year, of "Are you coming back?"

If he would have left just a hint of a chance being there, many would probably feel different about this. As it is now, to many, they just see this as greed.

Elmo

01-12-2004, 02:10 PM

a guy's allowed to change his mind

And we hope the new one works :D

I am reminded of when Clemens complained about how the press was misquoting in Boston and reached a point where they just essentially gave him an 'open mike' to say whatever he wanted......it was not pretty.

He's a heckuva pitcher and I've enjoyed watching him pitch.....I can live without hearing him speak, and I stopped listening long before he left Boston. It's like listening to a rocker discuss his or her music.....

SmedIndy

01-12-2004, 02:45 PM

He can do what he wants and it's fine by me. In all sports, you're not really retired until you're taking a dirt nap, anyway.

Skip

01-12-2004, 04:01 PM

August 10-12, Astros at Mets. Guess who won't be there?

But, joking aside, I have no problem at all with this un-retirement. I think he was sincere before, and an unexpected confluence of events (success in 2003, Petitte to 'Stros, no Olympics, etc.) led him to reconsider.

Ytown Tribe fan

01-12-2004, 04:38 PM

Wolf Hopper

01-12-2004, 05:22 PM

I just came off a very long drive - two plus hours - and all the sports talk stations were playing sound bites of Clemens from this past season, each along the lines of "No question. This is my last season. Nothing can make me change my mind."

I still think Clemens is one of the, if not the best ever, pitchers of all-time. But, to me, his word means squat after this.

TimmyB

01-12-2004, 05:46 PM

I still think Clemens is one of the, if not the best ever, pitchers of all-time. But, to me, his word means squat after this.

It didn't mean much before, either.

pwdennis

01-12-2004, 05:53 PM

I'm as happy as a clam that TWO big-name pitchers took less money to leave the Yank$.

First off, it p's off Steinbrenner; second, it makes the union and the agents see red; third, it makes the owners "new frugality" seem reasonably less like collusion. It's the trifecta!

The only thing I'm steamed about is that none of the big-time FA's will take less to sign with Cleveland.

I quite agree

As an aside, I think Clemens will receive far less harassment at the ballpark this year about his unretirement, than he would have had he stayed in the American League

manny tortolero

01-12-2004, 06:21 PM

Could be that Bagwell and the Rocket get in the HOF together with Astros cap :D

dbergs17

01-12-2004, 07:19 PM

WHen Roger Clemens signed with the Houston Astros today, he shot one of his patented rockets right to every yankee fan's heart. Throughout the enitre year, he made it clear tht he "was retiring" after this year. He even had the audacity to take a curtain call, showing that he was truthful. When Roger Clemens' agents put him on the free agency list, he got angry, saying that his career is over. I am brutally pissed, being a diehard Yankee Fan. He left no window open to return to baseball, writing off an amazing career on the grandest stage- a well played world series game. Roger Clemens better watch out if he comes to the Bronx next year. I know i would if i were him

SmedIndy

01-12-2004, 07:56 PM

Wow - Yankees fans used to deried the Red Sox faithful for saying the same thing about Clemens. Now that the shoe is on the other foot...hmmmm....

He's like Larry Holmes - he'll retire and unretire...

Ytown Tribe fan

01-12-2004, 08:32 PM

Roger Clemens better watch out if he comes to the Bronx next year. I know i would if i were him

Clemens is a big boy -- he can handle himself. What's the worst that could happen -- a few bottles or knives thrown from the stands?

gyb13

01-13-2004, 12:12 AM

much ado about nothing...i'd keep playing too

Wolf Hopper

01-13-2004, 06:31 AM

Wow - Yankees fans used to deried the Red Sox faithful for saying the same thing about Clemens. Now that the shoe is on the other foot...hmmmm.......

Huge difference Smed - IMO, the Boston fans should have no beef with him not pitching in Boston - - it was the GM who sent Clemens packing, not the pitcher. If anyone is pissed about Clemens pitching for a team other than Boston, talk to Dan Duquette (sic?).

In the case of NY, it was Clemens who kept saying that this was it, etc.

Plus, when he left Boston, there was no farewell tour, the gift of a Hummer (among other expensive items), etc.

In a sense, for Yankee fans, it's like this:

Say one of your "friends" at work is planning for a year to retire, and you all plan a huge party for him. In fact, you love him so much that you all pitch in $100 out of your pockets and buy him a $3,000 gold watch - and then you take him out to dinner that night and blow another $1,000 at the bar, etc.

Then, just 3 months later, your "friend" shows up at work and says "I changed my mind, I'm unretiring, I'm going to be working here again."

What would your reaction be then?

TGwynn19

01-13-2004, 06:33 AM

How in the world could Yankee fans be upset? The Yanks would not have hesitated for a second to sign Clemens if the situation were different. :rolleyes:

Wolf Hopper

01-13-2004, 06:55 AM

Not sure I follow Trev. Yes, the signing team should have no reason to be upset. It's the retiring team that should be ticked. For you, think of it this way - - in 2001, when Tony Gwynn retired, and they had all the hoopla for him, etc. As a Padres fan, how would you feel if in January 2002, he popped up, and signed to play another year with the Oakland A's? Upset?

Skip

01-13-2004, 08:00 AM

Upset?You can be upset (disappointed, etc.) about how a situation evolved and ultimately worked out without having to specify a bad guy. Were I a NYY fan in this case, I'd be upset but don't think I'd blame Clemens for changing his mind as the situation changed.

RedSeat

01-13-2004, 08:42 AM

Huge difference Smed - IMO, the Boston fans should have no beef with him not pitching in Boston - - it was the GM who sent Clemens packing, not the pitcher. If anyone is pissed about Clemens pitching for a team other than Boston, talk to Dan Duquette (sic?).
There's plenty of ill will towards the Duke, too.

The beef with Clemens wasn't just that he left. His final season, he swore up and down that he'd take a hometown discount to stay with Boston. And he said there were only three teams he'd consider playing for: Boston, Texas or Houston.

I have no problem with players taking the most money, like he did. My problem was that he said one thing and did another. And it's happening again.

SmedIndy

01-13-2004, 09:12 AM

Wolfie - your analogies always miss the mark with me. I take this like I take the Keith Jackson thing. No big whoop-de-damn-do.

And people do unretire - they do change their mind.

nyyfanfrombirth

01-13-2004, 09:13 AM

My feelings aren't hurt. I wish him the best. I just want to know when Pettitte and Clemens are going to film the sequel to the film "Stuck on You." Sheesh.

Ytown Tribe fan

01-13-2004, 09:40 AM

Wolf -- if my friend (who was one of my most valuable coworkers) retired from work and we had a big party with presents and everything and teary goodbyes, then three months later decided to work for a competing company for (almost certainly) less than our boss would've offered him to stay, I'd be just as miffed. Your analogy and your point are well taken, if you are a New York Yankee$ baseball player.

But we AREN'T Clemens' coworkers. We are baseball fans.

If you love pizza and your local pizzeria makes the best in the country and the owner retires and has a big send off and teary farewells; then he "unretires" and opens up his great pizzeria in another city 2000 miles away, how would you feel? Would you wish him well? Would you let your friends in that city know that they are in for a treat? Would you visit your friends in that city to share pizza with them and wish the owner well in his "unretirement"?

Surely you don't believe that fans of other teams should feel sympathy for the Yank$ or their fans. That's like feeling sorry for Microsoft because their new O/S has a couple of bugs to work out. Either way, Gates is gonna make a billion bucks on it and he'll work the bugs out anyway. What -- you think the Yank$ can't find a pitcher or five to replace Clemens?

As a baseball fan who is neither a fan of the Yank$ or the 'Stros, I am glad that Clemens is following Warren Spahn's advice to him shortly before Spahnie died, namely that if you can still pitch, MAKE them tear the jersey off of you before you ever, ever quit.

Can Clemens still pitch? Is he still one of the better pitchers in the league? Is he one of the better pitchers on his team? Those, to me, are the ONLY concerns in this matter. The rest is up to his teammates and his former teammates. If THEY don't mind, then what right do WE have to be bothered?

KCBOOMER

01-13-2004, 11:13 AM

The season hasn't even started and already they are making fine whine in NY.

Circumstances changed and the guy changed his mind. That's life. Get a grip and move on.

nyy26wc

01-13-2004, 11:17 AM

Where was the hatred towards Luis Sojo when he came out of retirement during the 2003 season?

Where was the hatred towards Paul O'Neill when there were rumors that he was going to unretire when the Yankees were looking for another OF in 2000?

Where will be the hatred towards Joe Torre if, after saying that he's not going to be looking for another contract with the Yankees, signs another one after the 2004 season?

Where is the outrage in the Joe Gibbs thread about him coming out of retirement?

The way that I see it is people aren't upset that a player backtracked on retirement, but rather it is a case of a player who's made more than a fair share of enemies over the years. Those who were already against him get another opportunity to attack. Those who were on the fence get to be tipped to the animious side and a bunch of others jump onto the anti Clemens bandwagon.

NJYANKEE

01-13-2004, 12:24 PM

As a Yankee fan I have one thing to say about this - I don't care. To me, Clemens was never a true Yankee so let him do what he wants. It's like when Cone went to Boston, everyone knew he was a hired gun so what's the big deal? If it were a "true" Yankee that did this then I'd be upset, but Clemens? No way. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Boss, if he didn't let Pettitte go chances are this wouldn't have played out like it did.

pathogan

01-13-2004, 12:36 PM

...ditto what Boom said. He is free contractually to do what he wants. c'mon, are we still expecting loyalty of some kind from any pro athlete?

TGwynn19

01-13-2004, 12:42 PM

hopbitters

01-13-2004, 01:16 PM

There are three issues to me and two of them are bothersome :

Issue one : He "retired" and came back. I don't have a problem with that. It happens on a moment-by-moment basis in my other sporting love of boxing, though generally with much more tragic consequences.

Issue two : He said he'd never come back. Well, to be honest, that in itself isn't a big issue. Sure he could have been a little more judicious in his wording (and, in some cases, he was, though most not), but if it were an isolated incident, I could let it slide. It really wasn't an isolated incident with Roger, however. It's just the latest in a long string of tales told by an idiot, signifying nothing. There will be more to come.

Issue three : Roger got a royal sendoff from the fans, media, other players, former teams...just about everybody in baseball. People auctioned off memorabilia. People took their families out to see his "last" home game, his "last" game in "fill-in-the-blank" park, etc. Maybe it wasn't his fault, but his "final" season was much more of an event than O'Neill retiring or even my boy Sojo (the greatest shortstop to ever put on the pinstripes :) ), and he sure didn't do anything to discourage it.

By itself, Clemens un-retiring shouldn't bother anybody. However, in the context of his history of confrontation, waffling on every issue, and generally representing himself as a world class jerk, it's reason enough to retract the good will and forgiveness he received when he "retired". We'll see how much he gets the next time he retires.

Rambis35

01-13-2004, 05:16 PM

As a Yankee fan, I'm disappointed because Clemens was a guy I always enjoyed watching. Even when he played with the Red Sox I had tremendous respect for him as a pitcher. But I can understand that he wants to play in Houston, so I'm not really upset. Also, from a baseball standpoint, he'll help the Astros, but I think the media hype is much greater than the actual impact this move will have on the Astros and Yankees.

One side note that I haven't really seen brought up-if the Yankees thought there was a chance Clemens would be playing in 2004, would they have offered him arbitration? That way they could have at least gotten a draft pick out of it, which I would have liked to see.

JamesI

01-13-2004, 06:09 PM

I've never been a Clemens fan, and I'm not surprised he came back.
I think he should have given New York a chance to keep him out of courtesy, but with the arbitration rules what they are, that wasn't possible.
I think it would be funny if Clemens and Piazza made the Hall of Fame together, though...
And as for cap, he should wear a Red Sox cap when he gets in the hall, but that's another thread.

jzmet

01-13-2004, 07:19 PM

First, we don't care about Roger Clemens for his words, just his arm.
Second, he helped the Yankees continue their dominance and Yankee fans should be grateful. He owes you nothing.
Third, and I think most important, BASEBALL FANS get to see one of the greatest pitchers of all time continue to pitch, and now National League fans get to see him. Isn't that what it's all about? Personally, though I watch a lot, I don't go to a lot of games, but I've just placed an order for tickets to the Padres and the Astros at the Pads new stadium. As a baseball fan, it'll be a highlight of the year for me. Now if the Padres had only found a way to sign Maddux, that would have been a matchup.

Wolf Hopper

01-14-2004, 07:03 AM

Saw this yesterday in print and agreed with the position: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/oconnor/2004-01-13-oconnor_x.htm

TimmyB

01-14-2004, 08:38 AM

Saw this yesterday in print and agreed with the position: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/oconnor/2004-01-13-oconnor_x.htm

O'Connor sounds like another jilted Yankee fan... :rolleyes:

hopbitters

01-14-2004, 10:40 AM

First, we don't care about Roger Clemens for his words, just his arm.

I guess I can't say much more than I disagree. His work ethic and love of the game are always praised, but he doesn't seem to have enough respect for his fellow players and fans to stand by his word. He was one of the best performers in a sport that I love. I enjoyed watching him pitch (when he wasn't beaning people or hucking bats around). I enjoyed his success as a Yankee fan. I simply don't respect him as a person and that does mean something to me.

Second, he helped the Yankees continue their dominance and Yankee fans should be grateful. He owes you nothing.

We were grateful. So were the Red Sox fans who gave him a standing ovation. So were opposing players who showed their respect for him in games that were still being contested. He embarassed me as a Yankees fan. I think he embarassed most baseball fans at one point or another. Still, we all showed our respect for his ability by honoring him in what we thought were his final appearances. I can't say I'll be particularly grateful the next time around. (Or the time after that.)

Third, and I think most important, BASEBALL FANS get to see one of the greatest pitchers of all time continue to pitch, and now National League fans get to see him. Isn't that what it's all about? Personally, though I watch a lot, I don't go to a lot of games, but I've just placed an order for tickets to the Padres and the Astros at the Pads new stadium. As a baseball fan, it'll be a highlight of the year for me. Now if the Padres had only found a way to sign Maddux, that would have been a matchup.

I tentatively agree with you here. I really don't begrudge him returning, just the manner in which he did it. If he can perform at a fraction of the level we've come to expect from him and more fans can see him do so, that's a good thing.

pathogan

01-14-2004, 12:37 PM

...free agent. baseball is still the wild west of capitalism. and the owners had their way for a long long time.

rcartman28

01-14-2004, 01:51 PM

I guess this is yet another case in point about believing athletes when they announce their "retirement".

I don't have a problem with Clemens deciding he couldn't stay away from baseball, getting to pitch for his "hometown" team. In his situation, I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing.

The only thing that does bother me is that when he was pitching in Game Three in the ALDS in Minnesota, I rearranged my schedule and almost wound up paying close to $300 for a pair of prime tickets because I thought it would be my last chance to see him pitch. Now, I am glad I didn't shell out that money (we wound up paying face value for upper deck seats for that game) because it would bother me to have paid that kind of money and then find out he's not retiring after all.

I'll have to find out when the Astros are playing at Wrigley Field this season....

captain_napalm

01-18-2004, 02:50 PM

Good point Lee.

Hey, it's part of the game. Clemens can do whatever he wants. I read somewhere that he got a pretty sweetheart deal, something similar to what Nolan Ryan had his last few years with the Rangers.

If I were in his position, I'd probably do the same thing.

The only thing I don't like about the situation is that the Yanks don't get a draft pick out of the deal

rico_p

01-20-2004, 03:01 PM

Sadly, the archives of ESPNMag.com are no longer available for free (and not good enough to pay for), but a few years ago, one of the writers (sorry, I can't remember who), wrote a story about Michael Jordan retiring and unretiring. His point was that players retiring during their prime, or at least when they still have plenty of gas in the tank to be above average, is essentially a selfish act. He claimed that professional athletes owe it to the fans to play as long as they can.

What was most interesting, though, was his reasoning for this claim. He didn't say, "Hey, we want to keep watching you play because it's fun," but something more subtle, along the lines of "Hey, we need to keep watching you play and see your skills deteriorate, so you look like a regular human to us." He was saying that trying to go out on top is like trying to guarantee that you'll be deified or at least remembered only as being brilliant, not as growing old and becoming more like an average person.

While I'm not sure I agree with his reasoning, I found the article very interesting, and kept being reminded of it last season as Clemens took his victory lap around the league.

Personally, I never figured Clemens would stay retired. If all the hubbubb about what a great competitor he was -- always working out, first to arrive, last to leave, blah blah blah -- was true, there's no way the guy could give up while he could still throw strikes. I, for one, was not surprised to hear he signed with the 'Stros.

I am a little surprised by the skewering Clemens is getting in New York, both in the press and among friends, though. I never much cared for Clemens as a person, so I don't feel sorry for him, or care much that he's gone, but I'm a little put off by how personally so many Yankee fans are taking it. I don't recall so many cries of moral outrage about a guy named Wells who backed out of a "promise" to the Diamondbacks.