NDF Roundtable Discussion - Baseball On The Internet

[Wolf Hopper]

Welcome to the NetShrine Discussion Forum (NDF) roundtable discussion regarding baseball on the Internet. :cool:

Many at the NDF were interested in seeing this happen (http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=12782) – and, thanks to the graciousness of those invited Subject Matter Experts (SMEs) who agreed to be part of this project, it is now a reality.

For those who may have missed it, here's the aim: To have a select group of baseball related site webmasters, owners, reps participate in a "roundtable" to discuss (in a friendly, fun, noncompetitive and civil manner) baseball sites on the Internet - - touching on many things.

I will serve as moderator for this roundtable and will post questions/topics as needed. The SMEs are also welcomed and encouraged to bring up discussion items. NDF members are free to ask questions, share an opinion, etc., as well.

One important note: Invited SMEs are permitted to mention their website, their products, etc., as they please during this roundtable. However, any member of the NDF who has a website of their own, and who was not on the “SME invitation” list, should not look at this roundtable as an opportunity to circumvent the NDF solicitation policy. If you are not an invited SME, please do not make mention of your site here (among your questions, opinions, etc.).

All – please be aware that the SMEs participating in this roundtable each have constraints on their disposal time (as we all do) and will not be monitoring this thread on a 24/7 basis. They will be “chiming in” as time allows them to do so – if you pose a question towards the SMEs, please be patient, with this understanding in hand, in allowing them time to answer it.

One request to the SMEs: In your first post to this thread, please identify yourself and the baseball web endeavor with which you are affiliated. Having this at least once in the thread will be helpful to those viewing the thread.

Thanks again to all the invited SMEs who agreed to be part of this project! Let’s have some fun with this! :thumb: Best regards,

[Wolf Hopper]

First item for discussion: SMEs, in your opinion, what is the current state of baseball on the Internet? Good? Bad? Other? What's overdone? What's needed?

[sportswired]

My name is Gary and I am the creator and webmaster for Sports-Wired.Com and the Baseball Cube at http://www.sports-wired.com

Most people will know of the site as the only place to get complete minor league statistics for players who have not reached the majors and who were active in 2002 or later. The web site is a constant work in progress and will be adding many new features in the coming months including independent league stats and more historical minor league stats for former major leaguers.

I am very happy to be a part of this roundtable though I won't be around to post too much this weekend, I will do my best to poke my nose in here and see what everyone is talking about. If anyone has any questions for me directly, you can contact me at baseball at sports-wired dot com.

As far as Baseball on the Internet goes, I have to say that there aren't many sports out there that can compare to the vast amount of information that exists on the web for baseball. There are many spectacular sites on the net and Im sure that some of the participants here are owners of some of these sites.

I think the baseball fans, more than any other sports fans, care about an individual player's accomplishments and stats as opposed to the team as a whole and so the Internet has reflected this by providing a level of detail that, without the Net, would never have been available to fans. You would have to wait for a Bill James publication to find out how Vlad Guerrero hit against Lefties! The level of information that the Internet provides to us is unbelievable and it goes beyond a player's current stats.

But here is what has always baffled me. It seems that unlike any other sport, a baseball player takes a few years to make it to the majors and they climb a ladder of minor league levels to get to the show. Some take 1 year, some take 10 and of course most never make it. 99.9% of MLB players go that route. And so we're very curious as to how the prospects are doing and so I had always wondered why we could go into such detail with an MLB player's stats...Daytime hitting vs night-time hitting, average leading off, average in an inning, pitching on 3 days rest etc. But we almost always focused on the major leaguers and we went into as much detail as possible and then stopped when we hit the wall. At some point (and I think we passed that point) stats become irrelevant. And I'm not talking about those Bill James stats like Runs Created...but I'm talking about a player's batting average with runners on 1st and 3rd or how he hits in July etc. Reminds me a scene in "For Love of the Game". Billy Chapel (Kevin Costner) helping out his future wife who's got a flat tire on the highway...

Jane Aubrey: Do you lose very much?
Billy Chapel: I've lost 134 times.
Jane Aubrey: You count them?
Billy Chapel: (Smiling) We count everything in baseball.


Which brings me to what has baffled me since the advent of the Internet. Why had no one ever provided minor league statistics for the players who have not reached the show. This of course, was the reason why I created The Baseball Cube and after over 2 years of preliminary work in producing the site, I understand now why. Its just a heck of a lot of work and you have to be really willing to go through the effort that it takes to do this.

But I think we've got it all covered now...

Current MLB In-depth: MLB.Com
Links: John Skilton's Baseball Links
Historical MLB Stats: Baseball-Reference.com
Minor League Stats: The Baseball Cube
Biographies: Baseball Library
Fun and Interesting Facts: Baseball Almanac
Boxscores: Retrosheet.
Current Minor League Stats: Baseball America

There's only one thing that I believe is missing from this list and I'm working dilligently on this to have it available by next spring...and that is a historical list of all MLB Baseball Drafts.

Thanks and I look forward to reading the other posts!

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Gary - and agreed - many want to see past minor league stats. The topic came up here once - when a NDF member was looking for a book with them: http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=5263

[DavidPinto]

My name is David Pinto and I write Baseball Musings (http://www.baseballmusings.com). I agree with Gary that the minor league are very under represented on the internet, and I'm glad to see he's working to fix this.

Statistics: STATS, Inc. allows me to use STATSPass, an html interface to an sql database. Although it does not give you the ability to mine the data the way direct access to the data base would, I would say the 95% of the questions most people want answered could be found here. I don't know what STATS, Inc. policy is as far as allowing individuals access, but it's the sort of tool that would be great to have for everyday users.

But as far as finding basic year-to-date stats, splits, and even game logs, all those seem to be available for free at various sites. And of course, the in-game boxscores, with updated averages, are one of my favorite internet innovations.

Traditional Media: ESPN.com's baseball page does it right. It has the headlines like the other sites, but it has the largest diversity of opinion on the web. Besides their regular writers, they can call on anyone involved with Baseball Tonight, ESPN the magazine, and ESPN radio. The other sites (FoxSports, CBS SportsLine, CNN/SI) have one columnist and a bunch of headlines. ESPN gives the reader a big enough choice that you'll always find someone worth reading.

New Media: I started my web log in March, 2002, and the growth of this genre has been impressive. For the first time, fans can get their views on anything from a booted grounder to a front office trade out to the entire world. Research ideas, that might never have seen the light of day in the past can be developed with input from any number of interested parties.

Something that may not be noticed is that web logs are becoming an important repository for web searches about baseball. When something happens, more and more people are going to the internet to find information; about a trade, about a game, about a scandal. And more and more they are finding the information they seek through web logs.

Just as fans are skirting the traditional media with web logs, I think we are fast approaching the time when players will do the same. We recently saw Curt Schilling use a chat room to check out Boston fans; it's only a matter of time before Curt goes directly to the fans with his own on-line diary. When that happens, fans will no longer need to depend reporters questions, they can ask their own questions directly.

To sum up, we have good stats available, but we lack the ability to mine them deeply. ESPN.com is far ahead of other traditional media sites in offering diversity of opinion. Web logs are growing in scope and influence, and may someday become the main way fans and players interact. And I'm sure we'll see internet uses we haven't dreamed of yet.

[sweaver]

I recently found Gary's site and it is indeed an invaluable reference source for minor league stats.

[Wolf Hopper]

Just as fans are skirting the traditional media with web logs, I think we are fast approaching the time when players will do the same. We recently saw Curt Schilling use a chat room to check out Boston fans; it's only a matter of time before Curt goes directly to the fans with his own on-line diary. When that happens, fans will no longer need to depend reporters questions, they can ask their own questions directly.


Thanks David! I will comment more on blogs later. To the point above, I agree - I believe this may be the wave of the future - esp. among players who make the majors with a decent school background. That said, there will always be the Lenny Dykstras and Rickey Hendersons of the world, to whom "internet" probably means a petitte intern.

[Wolf Hopper]

First item for discussion: SMEs, in your opinion, what is the current state of baseball on the Internet? Good? Bad? Other? What's overdone? What's needed?

My :2cents:

When I first started messing 'round on the 'net, in the early days of NetShrine, 5 years ago, it seemed (at least to me) that there were many fairly new and interesting baseball websites out there. I'm not seeing that today (as in right now).

Some sites of yesterday are gone. Actually, I would say that there are maybe half a dozen or so baseball sites, maybe a tad more, that I a visit these days on a regular basis. That's it - because there is not a lot out there now to grab my attention. (Plus, I confess, I spend a lot of time here.) The sites out there now that I enjoy, for the most part, have been around for a while now.

I regularly look at the new links added to baseball-links.com and it seems to me that the majority of new baseball sites added to the internet are people selling something (like autographs, cards, hitting and pitching devices) or school baseball teams and LL teams setting up sites for their teams. I'm not seeing sites that make me stop and say "great idea!" - at least not on a regular basis.

There are many, many, baseball weblogs popping up - no question. But, for a blog to get my attention (and keep it) it has to offer something special (like David's blog) - something to educate. If it's just Joe Average fan lamenting about the Sox blowing another one last night, that's not enough for me. Dime a dozen stuff.

On the ability to data mine, that would be nice; but, for 99.9% of what I need (and want to do), the SBE on CD (http://www.baseball-encyclopedia.com/) covers the trick.

So, what do I want to see more of on the internet? If I knew exactly what it was, I'm probably try and lend a hand on supplying it. ;) All I do know is, when I see it, I know it. (Geez, too close to the definition of porn!) OK, seriously, what I mean is - I want to see those new sites popping up that make me say "great idea!" - - and, for the most part, the majority, truly, what I see is the "Sprinfield Little League Devils" and "Sportscards-a-rama-ding-dong-a-lama."

Sometimes I feel like the Maitre D' in Ferris Bueller and want to say "I weep for the future." :(

[DSzymborski]

The weblog growth over the last two years has indeed been tremendous. However, this brings up a problem which is how to find all the opinions and data on baseball that are scattered around the internet. Google can't find everything and not being able to find something you know is out there is almost as frustrating as wanting something that doesn't exist.

While baseball websites and blogs are now doing excellent jobs at providing alternate sources for discussion, everyone is still, to some extent, at the mercy of the large media conglomerates to get data. While ESPN still provides a lot of data for players as David mentioned, there's less that there used to be for the average stathead.

For example, on ESPN, I used to be able to click on a player's hit chart and actually break it down further into groundouts or flyouts (and various other breakdowns). That's gone now. Bigleaguers.com used to have situational data for every season. That's gone, too except for the most recent 3 seasons and the career. And don't even try getting zone ratings for players that are retired, unless you can pay a lot of money for the data like Mitchel Lichtman does.

It is still better, of course, than the print market. The essential death of the STATS handbooks, not to mention the Scoreboard, has been very disappointing.

Retrosheet has become one of the last places where you can get raw data anywhere. Gary's done a great job providing minor league stats, something that's nearly inaccessible, but without asking him, I'm sure that he's hampered in extending the scope of his site by the simple unavailability of data.

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Dan. As someone who has spent many, in what often seems like, an hour googling for info - I hear what you're saying! On the flip side, of course, is the validity of what you find. Just about anyone can set up a site these days - esp. with the blog hosters - and there's no law out there that requires web publishers/masters/etc. to have correct information on their site.

Sometimes, it's just a matter of something being out of date. Personally, I'm guilty of this - some bios in the NetShrine Gallery require updates - - it's just finding the time, on ocassion.

To me, this is just as big a problem as trying to find info - -trying to find correct info.

[sportswired]

The obstacles that I face in providing the minor league stats for my web site start with the unavailability of minor league data but also revolves around the fact that The Baseball Cube is a one man operation and so time is a factor too.

Though I am sure the data is available somewhere, its not available all in one place, which is of course the purpose of the site.

I just have to say one thing about my site while I'm here and that's that I get some complaints about the advertising on the site and how there's a lot of it and I want to defend my position in that I put a lot of work into the site and I do it for 2 reasons. (1) To fill a void on the Internet for baseball statistics and (2) To make a run at supporting my family through a job that I absolutely love. I also need to fund the purchase of publications and subscriptions which help me to compile my data. Not to mention hosting and internet access!

Some of the ads are intrusive but I always program it so that it only invades the visitor on their first visit. I felt that if ESPN and MSN can do this, why can't little old me...

Thanks!

[BA_KG]

Hi everyone. I'm Kevin Goldstein, and I'm the General Manager of BaseballAmerica.com -- some of you may know me from my previous incarnation as www.theprospectreport.com -- an email service that covers the daily action in the minors and has nearly 10,000 subscribers, including front office folks from all 30 teams, along with plenty of GMs, media folks, agents, etc.

Last summer, BA purchased the prospect report, and hired me. I had a long standing relationship with BA as a consultant, and I'm having a blast working with them every day. It's truly wonderful.

I think our site is truly THE BEST place to go for information on the minors and prospects (as well as college, draft, and amatuer action), and that said, I still think we have tremendous room for improvement.

I'm not sure who else is participating in this, but I do see that I am so far the only person working on a pure for-profit site done by a full company with a staff, office, and all that good (or bad) stuff. Doing this, and having come from a one-man operation done as a passion, I hope I can offer a perspective that's unique, and look forward to participating.

Minor league data is in many places, but I think people see us as one of the leaders in supplying it because we are one of the only places where it's not buried -- it's featured. We have an AMAZING number of newfeatures (both editorial and data related) planned for 2004, but unfortunately, I can't go into any specifics right now. I can say that I think all of the hardcore prospect folks will see a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the ability to find the data they need/want on the minor leagues.

I'd also say that I personally (and surprisingly) discovered that there's a unique market for 'pre-mined' data, such as the prospect report. There are plenty of folks who care about what's going on in the minor leagues, but don't have time/patience to go through 80-100 boxscores every day. But if someone else did it FOR them (that'd be me), they're all over it.

Again, I look forward to participating, and feel free to ask any questions.

KG

[Wolf Hopper]

Hello Kevin - and, thanks!

Albeit a tad off topic, maybe you can share some of the latest with us (as a quick sidebar) - and I think Gary will be interested in this - on the latest development on minor league stats. There's a new company taking over the control of that effort now, no?

[BA_KG]

There's a new company taking over the control of that effort now, no?

The Sports Network will become the official statistician for Minor League Baseball under the NAPBL.

The official press release is at:

http://sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=pr/news/release_2003_11_10.htm

Unfortunately, this is one of those things I'm not at liberty to discuss too much at this time. I can repeat from my last post, that I think we'll provide our customers with some pretty great stuff in '04 -- read into that what you will.

KG

[sweaver]

I hear some of you bemoaning a lack of data, but those of us who lived in the pre-James era can remember when virtually none of this stuff was available. It may not be as good as it once was, but to me it is still a golden age.

Congratulations to Kevin on getting a job doing what he loves (the true American dream) and that would lead to a question I would like to ask the panel: some of you are paid to do what you do, others do it on the side simply as fans. Do any or all of you dream of getting paid to do this kinda baseball work someday?

[SeanLahman]

the question was "what is the current state of baseball on the Internet? Good? Bad? Other? What's overdone? What's needed?"

For those of you that don't know me, my name is Sean Lahman. I was co-editor for the last two editions of "Total Baseball: The Official Encyclopedia of Major League Baseball," but I'm probably better known as the creator of baseball1.com

I launched the Baseball Archive website in 1994. It was one of the first baseball sites on the net, it it grew out of my frustration at trying to find baseball reference sources online. A little less than ten-years later, just look at what you can find. There's exhaustive coverage of active players and current games. News & notes, pitch-by-pitch stats, even video of the games, or live audio. There's more good analysis and commentary than any human being can read, complete historical records -- not just online encyclopedias, but scores and stats for every game every played.

I don't think it's a huge stretch to say that baseball has been more thoroughly documented than any other historical subject, and much of that effort has been accelerated by the advent of the internet. It has given researchers and writers the ability to connect with each other and share content -- writing, pictures, and most importantly, data. I started building a database of baseball stats in the late 1980s, so that I could do sabermetric studies. I started sharing that on my website, and was very pleased to find not only willing consumers, but volunteers and contributors. Now, we've got a whole team of people maintaining the databse, adding new stuff, and coordinating information that is collected by SABR committes and independent researchers.

This sort of stuff doesn't exist for other sports. Go try to find Otto Graham's career passing stats online, or basketball box scores from the 1970s. Baseball sets the standard.

What could be done better? I think there's a lot of redundancy. Frankly, that's why I've spent the last few years focusing on print publishing and doing web/database work for other sports. There seems to be an information overload, and not enough effort at providing overview and context.

Just my two cents....

[SeanLahman]

sweaver asked... "some of you are paid to do what you do, others do it on the side simply as fans. Do any or all of you dream of getting paid to do this kinda baseball work someday?"

I've been on both sides of that fence, or maybe all three sides :)

There are commercial sites, funded by a parent company with interests in otehr areas (print publishers, TV networks, etc.). There are standalone sites that try to generate revenue through ads or subscriptions, with the website as their only revenue source. And then there are sites done by individuals who aren't trying to make money.

The latter is by far the best, I've found. It's great to be able to cover your costs, but it takes a lot of work to try to make any significant amount of money on the web. You're better off working a day job to support your site... especially if it's a job that lets you steal office supplies :-)

The commercial sites run by the leagues or big corporate giants are driven by the dollar, and my expereince has been that most of them have a contempt for the content. Everythign must conform to certain editorial policies, and there's little room for creativity when decisions have to be approved by three different department heads.

The best innovation (in baseball on the net) comes from the folks who have done stuff to please themselves. They have built sites that they like, not because they think they'll generate a certain number of page views or make a profit, but simply because they want to do work that is interesting.

[Wolf Hopper]

a question I would like to ask the panel: some of you are paid to do what you do, others do it on the side simply as fans. Do any or all of you dream of getting paid to do this kinda baseball work someday?

I make a decent living now at my "real" job - so, to switch, I would have to get a pretty decent job in baseball (meaning no entry level stuff) or, sell the house, cars, and tell the kids that college is overrated. So, for me, to dream that dream, it's a big dream - kinda like the win the lotto dream. That said, I'm constantly tapped on, in many places, to provide some baseball information, opinion, etc. And, every time I do it, my wife's reaction is the same: "It's a shame you can't take all that baseball knowledge and make some money with it." So, just for her, someday, I hope to make some kind of money via baseball. Not through NetShrine - I've already turned down lots of requests for ads - because the site is a love now, and the minute it becomes a "job" I'm afraid it will ruin that relationship. More so, there's a book coming from me - someday. I still need to learn more baseball and work on my writing some more - both which NetShrine helps me with - before I make a go at it.

[sportswired]

I have to say that it is definitely my dream to follow in Kevin's footsteps and have someone pay me to do this work but living in Montreal, I'm not sure that will ever happen. As most of you know, though there are lots of Expos fans around (most of them closet fans), its not exactly a baseball hotbed up here.

But for now, running The Baseball Cube gives me great pleasure and is a great hobby if nothing else. More of a passion, actually!

I'm not really sure where my passion for this came from...I think more than anything, I was looking for an outlet for my love of baseball statistics and I didn't want to produce a redundant site so I searched for and found a niche in minor league stats. I hope to expand on it to earlier seasons and maybe even other sports and if the revenue starts to roll in, so be it but if it doesn't, it won't diminish my passion any.

[Wolf Hopper]

Belated, SeanLahman, thanks for joining the table!

Question: So many great baseball related sites have a Sean behind it - - do you guys ever get each other's mail by mistake?

[sportswired]

While I'm here, is there anything on The Baseball Cube that people would like to see added, or even removed?

I love getting feedback on the site as far as suggestions goes as it helps me gauge how well I am accomplishing my goal.

Someone asked me to build a "Minor League Stats Machine" where you can plug in different variables, pull the level so to speak and it churns out the results.

Any other great ideas that you think would benefit the site?

[Wolf Hopper]

Gary - seeing your work, I'm surprised that Omar or JP hasn't called you already! ;)

Kevin - thanks for the press release on MiLB's stat decision. I understand if you can't go into details. The release is more than enough - just wanted to share that news with the NDF group as I thought of it. NDF members, for more, I know Will Lingo has a column on it in the latest BBA. Pick up a copy - always a good move!

[bblinks]

Hi everybody, and thanks for the invitation to join in, Steve.

I'm John Skilton and I guess I'm best known for Baseball-Links.com which, believe it or not, was the first web site I ever created. It was started in March, 1995 when about 95% of the people I knew hadn't even heard of the internet. I was fascinated by the web and wanted to create *something*, and I knew the typical personal homepage with pictures of the wife and dog wasn't going to be worth the effort.

At that time I think the only search engines were Yahoo and Lycos, and neither had anything close to a comprehensive list of baseball sites. So being a lifelong fan of the game and aspiring geek, I figured an index of what was out there might be a worthwhile resource.

The first version of Baseball Links contained just over 100 links - and that included the 30-some newsgroups - and it was pretty complete since there wasn't much else out there. As I recall there were only two or three MLB teams with official sites then, and no more than five minor league teams with sites, so cataloging everything was pretty easy.

The first year brought a steady flow of traffic (about 100 users a day!) and I specifically recall the logs for one date in December of 1995 showing a grand total of 12 visitors. OK, so the offseasons were apparently going to be slow. :-)

Never in a million years did I anticipate that the site would still be around eight years later, nor that it would lead me to leave the education business (I was a HS teacher for 14 years) and get into web design full time.

Baseball Links is still primarily a labor of love since what little revenue the site generates (mostly through advertising) is really a means of breaking even on the costs. I've been fortunate, however, that SkilTech, Inc. has continued to grow and prosper as we design, maintain and host sites for more than 20 minor league teams and leagues, as well as a variety of sports-related and non-sports businesses.

Well, that's my story in a nutshell. I look forward to participating here as much as time permits.

[bblinks]

I regularly look at the new links added to baseball-links.com and it seems to me that the majority of new baseball sites added to the internet are people selling something (like autographs, cards, hitting and pitching devices) or school baseball teams and LL teams setting up sites for their teams. I'm not seeing sites that make me stop and say "great idea!" - at least not on a regular basis.
:(

Unfortunately, I feel your pain in that regard. I feel very much the same way.

To tell you the truth, it's what caused me to eliminate the Link of the Week from Baseball Links. It simply became too difficult to find truly remarkable sites that weren't commercial entities or fronts for hucksters. I've actually tried to be more selective in listing card and equipment vendors (listing only those where baseball is the predominant sales area), but they still continue to represent the bulk of the new stuff we're adding these days.

Very rarely am I blown away by a new site these days, and I too fear that's a bad sign of things to come.

John

[sportswired]

John,

I found your site a long time ago and one of the first sites that I tried to create was a baseball links site but there was no way I could compete with yours so I scrapped that idea pretty quickly.

Gary

[Wolf Hopper]

Gary - many have tried to duplicate what John has done - and can't compete - you were smart to recognize that out of the blocks. Don't feel bad, I'm sure some now will try and duplicate what you have done - and won't be able to keep up. ;)

Just a quick story on John's skiltech.com - - in case any are interested. "NetShrine" started as an AOL homepage - and it was frustrating for me. AOL was down as much as it was up back then in 1999. John dropped me a note and suggested that I switch to skiltech for my hosting. My problem was - AOL was very simple, in terms of creating and loading files, etc. I needed that, because I am not a savvy PC, technology-type, person. When I told John this - he offered to guide me through whatever I needed. So, I decided to switch to skiltech for my hosting. John and his crew held my hand and had to put up with many a dumb question. In fact, to this day, just about 5 years after joining skiltech as a customer, I still (about once a month) come up with a stupid "why" or "how to" question for them. And, they are always there for me. If anyone is looking for a host, I highly recommend them.

:o OK, that's my shameless plug. Back to the roundtable and the topic on the board, the state of baseball on the internet.......

[nyy26wc]

I'm Lee Sinins, the creator of the sabermetric baseball encyclopedia, the author of the ATM reports and the creator of Baseball Immortals. With the amount of time I've spent at NDF over the past couple of years and the amount of familarity I have heard with people, I think everyone understand why my intro is just limited here to a single sentence.

I think there are several major areas where baseball on the internet thrives--

1) The availability of stats and up to the moment game updates.

2) There are many of us who are not satisfied with the quality of reporting of baseball reporting that we get from the mainstream media. We will always be dependent upon them to report the factual matters of things like what moves were made, as well as handling the rumor mill.

But, with the mainstream press mostly ignoring sabermetrics, many of us have to turn to other places to get commentary that interests us.

3) The collection of player notes.

Each day, I collect a lot of articles from each of the team's local newspapers, as well as national sources. The amount could range from just a few on the slowest news days, up to over a hundred on a good day in the offseason and I consider 200 to be a slow day during the regular season.

It takes some time to work my way through those articles and occassionally I'll miss an item while I'm reviewing everything. So, I also use a couple of sites that specialize in collecting player notes as backups while I'm writing the ATM reports. Meanwhile, to move from myself to the general population, there are many online users who rely on those services and they are an important part of baseball online.

There's also the fact that newspapers are now online, which as I've mentioned is vital to my operations. But, I guess that's more of a general societal online thing than a specific baseball online thing.

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Lee - - - - just a housekeeping note - we've heard from 7 of 12 of our invited SMEs on current topic of the state of baseball on the internet - - we'll allow some time for the outstanding SMEs to ring in before moving to the next topic on the roundtable agenda. In the interim, NDF members and invited SMEs, please feel free to discuss what has been posted so far.......

[Wolf Hopper]

I think there are several major areas where baseball on the internet thrives-- .........The collection of player notes. ............There's also the fact that newspapers are now online, which as I've mentioned is vital to my operations.

One thing, regarding the online newspapers, that kills me every time it happens, is when they remove a story. By this, I mean, in a search, say via google, I find a story about "Joe Baseball" or "Team Baseball" (whatever I'm looking for) and then when I hit the link, I get the "newspaper site" with a blank page. I can understand, slightly somewhat more, if I'm trying to get a story from 1997; but, most times, this happens when I try and get a story from a week past. That's one area where there's room for improvement, in terms of baseball on the Internet, - better archives of past features. In the last couple of years, ESPN.com has made big strides in that department, IMHO, FWIW.

[sportswired]

One thing, regarding the online newspapers, that kills me every time it happens, is when they remove a story. By this, I mean, in a search, say via google, I find a story about "Joe Baseball" or "Team Baseball" (whatever I'm looking for) and then when I hit the link, I get the "newspaper site" with a blank page. I can understand, slightly somewhat more, if I'm trying to get a story from 1997; but, most times, this happens when I try and get a story from a week past. That's one area where there's room for improvement, in terms of baseball on the Internet, - better archives of past features. In the last couple of years, ESPN.com has made big strides in that department, IMHO, FWIW.

Steve, when you look in the search engines and find an outdated link, you can always click on the Cached link that is with it. This will allow you to download the page directly from the search engine and avoid outdated pages!

[Wolf Hopper]

Steve, when you look in the search engines and find an outdated link, you can always click on the Cached link that is with it. This will allow you to download the page directly from the search engine and avoid outdated pages!

Never thought of trying that with online newspapers! Thanks for the idea!

[cubfan33]

Most probably know me around here, but I'm Will Carroll. I write a column for Baseball Prospectus and write a blog at All-Baseball.com. (Note: the opinions here are mine and do not represent the stance of BP at all.)

I think that the idea of the internet as media critic is less exciting that the complete disintermediation of sources that have failed us. Instead of having maybe a beat writer and columnist or the guys on BBTN, now we can go out and find sources that we trust. It's this trust (which is equal parts credibility, entertainment, information and more) that will decide where we get out information. If I'm in Boston, do I read the Globe or the Herald or "Bambino's Curse" or Gammons or Edes or Channel whatever? With all the Cubs blogs and the data I can find, I'm no longer stuck reading Mike Kiley and Cubs.com. We've freed the information, but have not yet figured out a way to determine which sites are worth reading, except in an individual fashion ... which is okay. The blog-world is pretty incestuous, but that imparted credibility -- my column exists because Lee Sinins and Peter Gammons said they read me -- is very important and people have to really think about who they link to.

I think the overrated thing on the internet is interactivity. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Boards and blogs make it a near zero-cost proposition to spread that opinion. What will kill this is the signal-to-noise ratio. Sons of Sam Horn made a lot of news this week due to the Schilling chat, but also took heat for their language. (BTW, the idea of a curtschilling.com is nice, but how fast would agents take those over and turn them into a marketing vehicle or worse, outsource them.) Too many discussions descend into woofing or "CubZ ROOL! We OwnZ You!" I think the premium will be paid for trusted, consistent content.

I'm with John (above) on the lack of good new sites. Few come fully formed like Alex Belth or show a clear positive evolution like David Pinto. I don't think many people realize how hard it is to do this well, do this consistently, and to differentiate yourself.

[Wolf Hopper]

Well said Will. Those who consistently do "well" do differentiate themselves from the pack - and those are the baseball sites on the 'net which are the positive experience.

[SmedIndy]

I think my biggest concern with baseball on the internet is the lack of availablity of true history (of course, knowing my predilection for ye olden days you wouldn't be surprised).

I would truly supprort a baseball-referernce type site that showed every players minor league stats from time immemorial. I think that would be truly something to behold on the internet.

Currently we have some good sites for information, and a few decent message boards - but the fan boards I tend to avoid because of their drooling homerism.

[sportswired]

The purpose of The Baseball Cube is to provide historical minor league stats as best as possible.

Though the first phase was to "catch up" with the current players as these are most relevant, I will be going backwards as I get my hands on the minor league stats. I have a feeling its not going to be easy but this is my mandate.

I hope I can provide you with what you are looking for someday!

[sweaver]

That's terrific, and much success with that project! The current minor league stats are already helpful to me in my own searchings.

Time out for a minute here to express thanks to all who have joined in again. I'm sure Steve has expressed to the panel members how much we of the NDF appreciate your stopping by, but let me express it again. I think I can speak for the whole group in saying how happy we are to have you join us. And you don't have to limit yourselves to this forum, you may certainly join us in other discussions. Lee and Will already do, and have!

[SeanFormanBR]

Hi, I was finally able to set aside some time for this. Thank you to Steve for inviting me.

State of the internet and baseball.

Blogs are a big deal. The democratization of the internet is going to have long ranging and lasting effects on the media. I think folks like Aaron Gleeman and other prominent baseball bloggers are eventually going to make the jump into the mainstream media and the mainstream media will only do more and more blogging. There is going to be a great deal more crossover.

I'll plug the Baseball-Databank.org which Sean Lahman and I put together as an idea to create an open source source for baseball data. I like to think of this as the rosetta stone that will pull together far reaching data sets and allow people to create tools and answer questions previously too onerous or impossible to answer before. It is still in its nascent stage.

The lack of new sites is a natural artifact of the maturation of the internet. It is harder to break into a niche with someone already there. Also, unless the economics change at some point, there is an economic disincentive to starting sites. BR and Primer's server bill tops $12,000/year.

There are a lot of tools that could have interesting baseball applications. I would love to see someone create Son of Project Scoresheet. With Palm technology and the internet providing play-by-play data from current seasons should be fairly easy (at least compared to the 1980's).

I also like the idea of a purely Baseball Wiki that takes the tremendous group history of baseball and empowers fans, researchers, etc. to write the largest history of baseball ever. see http://www.wikipedia.org/ for an example.

Making money? Aspirations?

My job situation is similar to Steve's in that I would need to be bowled over to pull up stakes and work in the biz. However, bb-ref business model is essentially working as a part-time job now, so I am not worrying where next month's server payment will come from and I was able to buy a partial season plan to the phillies guilt-free.

I hope to keep working on BR for many years to come. It has come a long ways in four years and I have some large-scale plans this next year that I hope I will have time to incorporate.

Thanks,
sean

[cubfan33]

Consider me a baseball republican. Democracy is too loud and messy to be profitable. The Gleemans of the world will be the cannon fodder that brings the next generation a chance, if they can stand tall enough and strong enough. Baseball is already trying to break the backs of those of us standing up to their dominance. They broke the independent websites of the teams; now, they're headed for play by play and shortly thereafter, they'll get a firm grip on their own statistical self. We're beginning to see Elias once again emerge from its shell, hand in hand with MLB. We'll get good things - like the downloadable burnable games, universal access from MLB.tv, and the like - but in the end, Bud still owns the game.

Forget Democracy. That battle is lost. We need religion.

[Wolf Hopper]

I think Will might be on something - check that - J/K Will! - - I think Will might be on to something! ;)

Remember, Bud was clear to make sure that internet profit was at his disposal, entirely, the last time he had his powers defined, right? (Doug, we need you on this one!)

He did that for a reason, maybe - thinking that baseball could lock down on all things baseball on the net? Including data?

SeanFormanBR - thanks for joining in!

I think we might be able to start on our next topic soon..........

[Wolf Hopper]

..........and here goes............

....since we still have not heard from 1/3 of our invited SMEs yet on our first topic, we'll switch to a lighter topic - and encourage those SMEs yet to post here to cover our first topic - in addition to the one posed for all of the SMEs now..........

What's the funniest story (that you can share in public) related to your experience with your baseball Internet endeavor?

[nyy26wc]

I received an email from someone who said they are the sister of a journeyman player who I had written an unfavorable comment about in that day's ATM report. That individual was very defensive about the player and it was a pretty funny response. I'm sure that the person intended it to be serious, but I found it comical. Among the things she was now that the player had a manager who appreciated his skills and realized how good he is, he will prove how good he is. Of course, if the person was actually paying any attention, she would have seen that the manager so appreciated him that he was on his way to a career low in playing time (and it was late enough in the season that it is was noticeable that was going to happen).

I also think that it's funny that the #1 more frequent complaint that I receive is an allegation of being a Yankees hater. I am a lifelong Yankees fan. But, there is a vocal segment of fans who believe that that if you ever have a negative thing to say about their team, it must mean you are against the team.

[Skip]

But, there is a vocal segment of fans who believe that that if you ever have a negative thing to say about their team, it must mean you are against the team.Then there must be a substantial segment of your readers who think you are against everyone! :loud: :loud:

[BA_KG]

What's the funniest story (that you can share in public) related to your experience with your baseball Internet endeavor?

I hope this doesn't come off as gloating, but here goes. This ain't the funniest story, but it sure brings a smile to my face.

The Prospect Report had been running for awhile, and thanks to great word of mouth, mentions in BA and by Will is his quickly growing UTK column, I was up to about 3 or 4 thousand subscribers, when I thought the maximum number of people who would care about this garbage would be about 250.

Things were already getting VERY weird. I already had about eight or so MLB teams subscribing and we getting emails from agents and players parents on a daily basis about why I didn't include their client/son, a 26-year old career minor leaguer in AA, in the report, as he had two hits last night. The report was starting to take up alot of time in just replying to everyone and I was beginning to try to figure out what in the hell to do with this thing.

I was running the list through a company called yourmailinglistprovider.com, and through their system, I had it set up to send me an email every time somebody subscribed. I did this because every once in a while, somebody with a team signed up, and I always liked to establish a contact with them.

On the morning of May 12, Mark Shapiro signed up -- which was great, because I always got a kick out of GMs signing up, good for the ego. I send him an email and he quickly responded saying "thanks, Theo and Gammons turned me on to it". Theo I knew about, but I had no idea about Gammons. I had to crawl through the archives to find it, as his email address isn't something that obviously says "hey, I'm Peter Gammons".

I work at home (still do) here in Chicago, and my computer is on literally 24 hours a day. I was having some problems after working for a little bit, and I needed to run an errand, happy about having another GM, so I rebooted my machine and went to bank, post office and to get some lunch. I come back and come to my computer and I have like 8 instant message windows flashing. I have no idea what's going on, but my hands are full so I just click to open my email client while I take my jacket off, put my food down etc. Then I see "Downloading message 1 of 1969".

I immediately panic and preceed to spill my drink all over my desk. Something clearly is wrong. My cell phone never rang, but something HORRIBLY HORRIBLY WRONG has happned with a site I've built or consulted on or manage and everythings gone to shit and my day is going to be completely ruined, and I better wipe that grin off my face about Shapire signing up because in the real work this means nothing, and what are all of these IMs, and crap!

So I click on one and it's just a link to some ESPN story -- screw that, no time for that, and then I click on that and they're all that. Maybe something huge happened? I can't care about this, something awful has happened and I got bills to pay! I go to my phone and NO messages! So I calm down and look at my mail and about 500 are already downloaded and they all say the same thing . . . I'm finding one to past here . . .

----

-----Original Message-----
From: webmaster@yourmailinglistprovider.com [mailto:webmaster@yourmailinglistprovider.com]
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 11:45 AM
To: kevin@theprospectreport.com
Subject: New subscriber


Hello,

Someone signed up for your newsletter:

Account: prospectreport

Email address: whoever@whereever.com

Current number of subscribers: 3546

-----------

I don't know what's going on, but hey, that's cool lots of people are signing up -- I check all my servers and anything I've launced in the past 12 months -- everything looks fine. I finally click on the link from all of the IMs:

http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2003/0512/1552410.html

I've been mentioned in Gammons, everything changed dramatically after that.

Is this too long, or too unfunny?

If so I have a short one. If you get the report from me every day, you know the format -- just lists of guys and what they did last night, like . . .

TM PLAYERS AB R H BI AVG
PHI T.Chapman 3B 4 1 2 3 .304 - 2B, HR (7), K
MIN M.Restovich RF 5 2 2 0 .272 - BB, K, SB
ATL J.Estrada DH 6 2 3 0 .339 - 2B

Anyway, one day I just made a typo and put the wrong team with the wrong guy. Four minutes after that, the player's MOM emails me in a panic asking when he son was traded, she was very upset.

KG

[BA_KG]

I also think that it's funny that the #1 more frequent complaint that I receive is an allegation of being a Yankees hater. I am a lifelong Yankees fan. But, there is a vocal segment of fans who believe that that if you ever have a negative thing to say about their team, it must mean you are against the team.

This is SO true, and I'm really glad you point this out. I've collected emails from people who say that I'm specifically against their team, and that I never list prospects from their team.

So far I have such emails from fans of 28 of the 30 teams. Which means I only like two teams, which is surprising, as the report during the season still lists a couple hundred guys.

[Doug Pappas]

IRemember, Bud was clear to make sure that internet profit was at his disposal, entirely, the last time he had his powers defined, right? (Doug, we need you on this one!)

He did that for a reason, maybe - thinking that baseball could lock down on all things baseball on the net? Including data?


Hey, that's my cue!

Doug Pappas checking in...chair of SABR's Business of Baseball Committee, writer for Baseball Prospectus, proprietor of Doug's Business of Baseball Pages and the business of baseball Weblog at http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/bbblog.htm, and a lawyer in real life. To respond to the specifics first:

MLB does not, and under U.S. copyright law can not, claim ownership of all baseball-related data. Facts can't be copyrighted. A few years ago the courts refused to let the NBA stop STATS, Inc. from providing real-time game updates via pager, saying that the practice didn't violate any of the NBA's rights.

In January 2000, the owners voted to centralize all Internet rights in the Commissioner's Office. That vote put Internet rights on the same basis as national radio/TV/cable rights. It allowed mlb.com to serve as the exclusive Web source of online audio/video -- and most importantly from Bud's perspective, it ensured that money from Internet rights would be shared equally, rather than the more popular teams earning more.

Back to the more general discussion...

The best thing about the Internet is the amount of information it makes available. One of the worst things about the Internet, though, is the ever-increasing percentage of that information that's duplicative, inaccurate, or as worthless as the 3 AM ravings of a drunken caller to the local all-sports station.

I'd like to see more specialty blogs, fewer new "here are my reactions to the day's baseball news" sites. The number of words being written about baseball may be growing exponentially, but the time I can spend reading them isn't. At this point, to grab my attention a new site has to (a) offer something I can't find elsewhere, (b) provide a distinctive, informed perspective on a topic I'm interested in, or (c) be EXTREMELY well-written. The Webmasters who have already posted on this topic keep me busy enough! :)

Doug Pappas

[cubfan33]

My experience echoes that of KG in almost every way. I thought maybe 100 people would read injury info, everything changed with a Gammons mention (and Neyer didn't hurt either), and I get more emails from moms than anyone else connected with players. While UTK was an email based endeavor, I had all the teams and players from about 25 teams. When I recognized an email, I'd often reply and ask if they were who I thought they were. Some - notably Schilling and Wood - responded and we've had conversations. I think each team has someone who's the 'net geek' and tells everyone else what's being written. My favorite reaction was introducing myself to Sammy Sosa and him saying "You injury guy. I no injured!"

On Doug's point, I think he's dead on. I'd much rather see a site like what Doug or KG or UTK do than another blog that is often little different than any other. I think something like baseballgraphs.com or Ruzich's 'Transaction Guy' has potential, but I also think there's niches I haven't thought of that like box scores or blown elbows have a much larger than expected market.

[Wolf Hopper]

Lee, Kevin - great stories - thanks! Mine is coming - promise, and it's along the same lines.

Doug - thanks for joining in and clearing that point up on the data. Now, where's your funny story? ;) You too Will.

[SeanLahman]

I've had a similar experience to what others have described regarding surprise at how quickly an audience grew, and the shock I got when my bandwidth bills jumped so high.

A couple of anecdotes --not sure if they qualify as funny or not. I wrote a book about the Pete Rose case in the early 90s. I think maybe three people bought it, but I've written a lot of articles on the case and have some stuff on the web. One morning circa 1999 I'm driving to work and happen to tune into the Howard Stern show, and Rose is his guest. They're trading banter, and Pete complains about some jerk that has written stuff about him on the web, and mentions me by name. I spent the rest of the day taking calls from friends who heard Pete call me out and fielding angry email from Stern's listeners.

Ten years ago, I'd field a lot of emails from people wanting to know more about so-and-so who played for a certain team in the 70s/80s. Without exception, every one came from a woman and every one was a name I couldn't find -- no record of him playing in the majors or minors. I think before the internet, a lot of guys whould try to impress the ladies by claiming to have played some pro ball. I disappointed a lot of people.

I've heard from agents and players and writers and all sorts of people who found my website. What I most enjoy is the people who need me help with a baseball question, not the SABR crowd, just regular people. I get a lot of stuff from kids doing school projects, and from others who aren't necessarily even baseball fans. Someone who discovered they were a great granddaughter of Commissioner Landis, someone who found a ball autographed by Mickey Mantle and a bunch of otehr people he couldn't identify, a young girl who wanted to know more about her grandmother playing in the AAGPBL. That's the stuff I really enjoy.

[DSzymborski]

The bandwidth bills are always a killer. The more popular your website is, the more you have to pay for that popularity.

I swear, it seems that baseball moms sit at home all day and google the names of their kids to see who's saying what about them. Especially the moms of Ken Phelpsers - any time I rail about someone like Jeff Patzke or Creighton Gubanich not getting a job, some mom sends me a nice letter about it.

What I've always found amusing is the e-mail I used to get from Maurice Bichette. Dante has always been my favorite target since he makes it so easy - even ignoring his overrated play and self-serving media quotes in which he'd bash his teammates, Dante's had two foibles that make him stand out among the crowd. Many years ago, he ran his own website and, upon finding that there was one of those silly clubs (300, 30, 90 for 3 years in a row or something) that only him and Babe Ruth belonged to, he put up as the start page pictures of the two of them side by side with the caption "Two of a Kind." The second hilarious thing was one of the local schools Dante donated money to for renovation of the baseball field. The catch? The money was conditional on the name of the field be changed from honoring FDR to himself.

So, Maurice would e-mail me these long tirades once in a while after I bashed Dante and I'd respond to him with more comments about Dante. Occasionally, I'd even write limericks about Dante (one of my favorite replies to nasty e-mails is a nasty limerick).

[SmedIndy]

It's funny - remember Prodigy? I posted on a baseball board there in 1994 or so that Rich DeLucia was on a track to become the next Jeff Kaiser (great at AAA, stinky in the majors) and his SISTER responded!

[sportswired]

My funny stories fall along the same lines as those already mentioned and they always center around people who are related to the minor leaguers who are listed on my site.

Some parents write in angrily stating that I had listed their son at the wrong high school or with the wrong birth place and they proceed to tell me the hospital that they were born at. (I won't be tracking that thanks)

I get people telling me they were drafted but never made the pros and I even get some people just writing in to tell me that they are the grand-daughter of a former player. I always make sure to reply politely!

But I think the funniest thing is when someone asks me to verify if their friend, who claims they played pro ball, is telling the truth. I think 99% of the time that I get this email, the other person was lying or at least, stretching the truth.

I think the most annoying emails (besides the tons of spam) are the ones where people are asking me to contact certain players for them, as if I am some kind of Baseball Player Telephone Operator. I appreciate all the email that I get but I think I need to write some form letters to send back to help save me some time!

[Doug Pappas]

Lee, Kevin - great stories - thanks! Mine is coming - promise, and it's along the same lines.

Doug - thanks for joining in and clearing that point up on the data. Now, where's your funny story? ;) You too Will.

Well, just yesterday I got another E-mail from someone who couldn't figure out that my April Fool's day "book review" entitled "Selig Yes, Zimbalist No" was a joke.

Another favorite communication came in about a year ago, when someone purporting to be an ex-player threatened to sue me for posting his 1986 salary on the Web. On the assumption he was either drunk or being impersonated, I'll do him the favor of withholding his name. :)

Doug

[Wolf Hopper]

You guys have some great stories!

I too get many a request along the lines of "Can you tell me where X played in the major leagues?" Seems there are a lot of grandfathers trying to impress grandchildren and guys trying to impress girls, etc. When it turns out that the guy did not play in the bigs, I always politely tell them that perhaps they may have played "professional baseball" but they did not play in the majors - and, it's hard to backtrack to see everyone who once played in the minors or attended a camp somewhere.

One of the more "fun" things for me is when I do a google search on a player or team or baseball topic, because I'm looking for something, and right up there in one of the top three or five results is a link to NetShrine.com. Every time it happens, I laugh. I just find it amusing. I realize that may only be funny to me.

I also get lots of "crank" e-mail. One that always stayed with me was from a woman (at least I think it was a woman, IIRC there was a woman's name in part of the e-mail address) who wanted to know why I did not include Hank Greenberg in the same group with Babe Ruth in NetShrine. I wrote back to her and explained that Hank was a Supernal - which is nothing to be ashamed of, at all. I went further into it, sharing that both Apicals (like Ruth) and Supernals would be equal to what many consider "Cooperstown Hall of Famers" - the greats of the game. The difference between the two being that Apicals are players who were the absolute best without question and Supernals were players who should be considered as some of the greatest to ever play the game.

Upon receipt of my explanation, she wrote back to me, and explained to me that there could be only one reason for this position on Greenberg: That I was a moron or a Nazi.

I've been called many things - in e-mails, on other sites, shoot, even within the NDF here - - stupid, jerk, dictator, one recent post somewhere (on another site) had be down as an "evil a**hole" - - and, I just laugh those off (in consideration of the sources). But, being called a "moron or a Nazi," well, that one took the cake. (FWIW, I believe that moron is the superset of Nazi; so, the claim was sorta redundant, IMHO.)

As much fun as having a baseball site is, you have to be prepared to deal with the cranks - that's been my experience, and my recommendation to anyone who will ask.

[nyy26wc]

Upon receipt of my explanation, she wrote back to me, and explained to me that there could be only one reason for this position on Greenberg: That I was a moron or a Nazi.

I was once called an anti-Semite for not considering Ross Barnes and Ed Reulbach among the all time greats. And that one actually occurred on a private email list involving many knowledgeable people.

[sportswired]

Despite all the strange emails I get, i've never had a mean or insulting email sent my way but then again, I don't post my opinion on baseball matters on my site.

[Wolf Hopper]

I was once called an anti-Semite for not considering Ross Barnes and Ed Reulbach among the all time greats. And that one actually occurred on a private email list involving many knowledgeable people.
Lee: Silly - everyone knows you're only a anti-negative-RCAA/RSAA-ite! :D

[Domeboys]

Do any of you ever get angry or challenging responses from team representatives?

[nyy26wc]

Do any of you ever get angry or challenging responses from team representatives?

I've never had that. I did have a team representative point out an error in one of my reports. But, I did misread something in an article, so the correction was really nothing more than what anyone else would have sent.

[Wolf Hopper]

Do any of you ever get angry or challenging responses from team representatives?

I'm not on their radar - yet. Hope springs eternal!

[SeanFormanBR]

As for the weird e-mails that I've gotten. They range from the humorous to the really sad.

I've had a number of estranged children and relatives contact me trying to find out how to contact their mlb playing father or cousin.

Back when I ran the Iowa Farm Report, I had an area where you could leave comments on the individual players. I had envisioned a large scouting collective. Well that never worked out, but I would occasionally get e-mails from young women who thought they were actually writing the players and would say something like, "I can't believe how drunk I was, I hope I didn't do anything stupid. Can I see you again?"

[Wolf Hopper]

Back when I ran the Iowa Farm Report, I had an area where you could leave comments on the individual players. I had envisioned a large scouting collective. Well that never worked out, but I would occasionally get e-mails from young women who thought they were actually writing the players and would say something like, "I can't believe how drunk I was, I hope I didn't do anything stupid. Can I see you again?"
:loud: Annies - now, there's a niche screaming for a specialty baseball website!

[KCBOOMER]

The best thing about the Internet is the amount of information it makes available. ..... The number of words being written about baseball may be growing exponentially, but the time I can spend reading them isn't.

That is exactly my problem. I simply don't have enough time to read even a small portion of it. I do have a number of favorites. Neyer-Stark-Gammons at ESPN. Gleeman's Blog is a classic must read. I wish the Royals had a blogger of that caliber. BP is a favorite though at times I worry that they have a bias issue. And of course NetShrine is where I hang out. You have to hang your hat somewhere.

The surest way to get off my "read" list is to be a one-sided bigot. It seems too many columnists/writers/bloggers see only evil in MLB no matter what they do. I expect people who publish to be fair and balanced and to be reasonable consistent. The baseball community consists of three legs: owners-players-fans. Yes, there's the media and agents and such but those are the big three. It annoys me immensely when the "ax to grind" group ignores the fan part of the equation when in fact that is the group they are a part of.

[Wolf Hopper]

10 of 12 invited SMEs have registered on the "state of the internet" topic..........7 of 12 have shared a fun story..........while we wait on the others to add their thoughts........let me throw another item out there.........and, I will qualify it.

This was not on the proposed agenda shared with the SMEs in the invitation to this roundtable; so, if you want to pass on it, you can - and I understand.

The topic is: mlb.com - what do you think of that site?

Personally, other than to pay for my season tickets and post-season tickets, I rarely frequent the site. There's nothing there for me. I do get a chuckle, when I do visit it, and I read "...this report was not subject to the approval of Major League Baseball or its clubs" (or something like that) at the end of each feature.

[BA_KG]

Do any of you ever get angry or challenging responses from team representatives?

Sure, many. But I'd like to say upfront that I have been pleasantly surprised to find most team personnel EXTREMELY helpful and giving of their time.

Obviously, they love baseball, and love talking about baseball, so they are more than happy to talk to you about anything. I'll get the occasional correction, and many emails telling me to keep an eye on this guy or that, scouting reports, etc.

It's been pretty great really.

[Wolf Hopper]

Kevin - that is great to hear. Do you find it coming more from the younger, new blood, front office types - rather than from the old school guys?

[BA_KG]

Kevin - that is great to hear. Do you find it coming more from the younger, new blood, front office types - rather than from the old school guys?

Absolutely not. A complete mix of both new and old school types. I think we have PLENTY to learn from both, and I think too often many of the new school followers are quick to jump on the grey hairs as old, know-nothing fuddy duddies when that couldn't be further from the truth.

KG

[Jim Rice]

I wrote something for a different site back when Tony Muser was still managing the Royals. I drew a line from his education in Catholic schools through his service in the Marines to his playing days as an all-field, no-hit first baseman as a means of demonstrating how he could arrive at some idiotic managerial decisions. The overall gist was that his personal experience was very black-and-white in nature during his formative years - nuns and drill instructors are like that - and that it affected how he saw the game. I made sure to note that this was very much to be respected in most aspects of life, just not baseball, and that I was speaking from personal experience as both the product of a Catholic education and the son-in-law of a Marine, but this did not prevent someone who purported to be a long-lost friend of Tony Muser from emailing that I was a bigoted, unpatriotic dunce. He was rather profane. Didn't I know that Tony Muser was a great !^##&* manager and that it was his &^$$%^&* ownership alone that held back his overpowering intellect by only providing mediocre $%#$&%^&# talent? Plus, Muser's dad "won" the #$^@$#^@%$ silver star, the "second-highest" award for bravery someone can receive, during Korea, so Tony must be wildly more patriotic than me. I was nothing but a lowly #$^$%&.

I replied as politely as I would to someone who sent a complimentary email, though I did manage to capitalize "Silver Star" for him, notify him that it's actually the third-highest award for valor in combat, and let him know that it's more proper to say he "received" it or was "awarded" it rather than "won" it since personal valor is really not a competition. That must have placated him because I never heard from him again. I've found that both the complimentary emails and negative ones should be handled the same way - reply politely to both (if volume allows). It's actually kind of fun to send back a calm, polite response to someone who gets that worked up over an opinion from some anonymous guy on the internet. I always imagine that it frustrates the hell out of them that I won't call them names back.

[cubfan33]

I've had some pretty angry responses, but overall, most teams realize I'm doing a "job" and that we won't always agree. MLB itself has been rather obstructive in ways I'd rather not go into, but only one team has been nasty and that was on principle. Once we cleared things up, life went on quickly and normally. My usual communications are corrections on small things, like "left shoulder not right" or correcting a guess I made.

[sportswired]

MLB.Com...

I think that overall, they have a good site but I find that they come across as money grubbers just a bit too much. Everything seems to cost money and they've blacked out the radio broadcasts on the Net and I think that it shows their true colours. I've heard a lot of stories of problems with the MLB.TV and the lack of support that subscribers received.

The player profiles and in-depth statistics for current players is excellent and their GameDay play by play boxscores are second to none on the Internet but that's all I use MLB.Com for.

The news is obviously biased and sometimes pretty informative but I think this portion of the site does what it is supposed to.

Like I said, the greed comes through on the site and that's the part that really bothers me.

[Wolf Hopper]

mlb.com is just missing it, IMHO.

Take me, for example: a full blown - and long time ago self confessed - baseball junkie. And, someone who frequents the internet.

mlb.com should be the site that I surf to, first thing in the morning, a few times during the day, and just before I hit the pillow at night.

It doesn't even come close. There are probably 4 or 5 other baseball sites that I am more likely to check, on a daily basis.

mlb.com needs to figure out why that is - unless they're not interested in me and their target is something or someone else?

[Domeboys]

mlb.com is just missing it, IMHO.

Take me, for example: a full blown - and long time ago self confessed - baseball junkie. And, someone who frequents the internet.

mlb.com should be the site that I surf to, first thing in the morning, a few times during the day, and just before I hit the pillow at night.

It doesn't even come close. There are probably 4 or 5 other baseball sites that I am more likely to check, on a daily basis.

mlb.com needs to figure out why that is - unless they're not interested in me and their target is something or someone else?

I have mlb.com experiences on each side. On the negative, I was a subscriber to mlb.tv. The customer service was the worst I have ever seen in any business. Just one example: When one could not connect to a game due to a problem, one had to leave a recorded message on a machine to be called back later, hopefully, the next day. Of course, that did no good when one wanted to see the game live.

On the positive side, I had expressed concern to mlb.com when their section on the Winter Leagues did not appear. They explained what was going on and before long, it showed up with full capabilities.

[cubfan33]

Nail on the head, Steve. You're NOT their target market. You want info, you're smart, you don't need to be spoon-fed - MLB.com (and MLB marketing in general) is to get new people into the game and into the stadium if possible. If they can make a little bank off you in the process, great. MLB is about getting fans, not keeping them. Luckily, their product keeps more people than marketing ever would.

[bblinks]

What's the funniest story (that you can share in public) related to your experience with your baseball Internet endeavor?

Not exactly the funniest, but definitely the most interesting...

Probably the time I checked into the Southwest ticket counter at BWI airport and the guy at the counter recognized my name when I presented my ID. It paid to be "THE" John Skilton though, as the guy gave me enough drink coupons for my next three or four flights!

[bblinks]

The topic is: mlb.com - what do you think of that site?

I personally find the coverage very bland and basic - the same stuff statistically you can find at ESPN.com, Sportsline, and about 50 other places. And while I don't expect the articles to be especially critical of the teams, players, owners or whatnot, I'd much prefer to read a more independent scribe's take on a game or situation.

I also think it was a sad day when they turned the individual team sites into cookie cutters, but that's probably a whole 'nother topic.

jms

[cubfan33]

MLB.com has good writers and bad writers. Barry Bloom is the designated mouthpiece, while people like Jonathon Mayo and Matthew Leach do really good work. I think that operation is actually really well run, if still short of its potential. MLB Radio is their biggest failing; the downloadable stuff and condensed games are awesome.

[Wolf Hopper]

Not exactly the funniest, but definitely the most interesting...

Probably the time I checked into the Southwest ticket counter at BWI airport and the guy at the counter recognized my name when I presented my ID. It paid to be "THE" John Skilton though, as the guy gave me enough drink coupons for my next three or four flights!

All you need is for Chris Berman to give you a nickname like "Rumple" and you may have gotten upgraded to first class with that fame! ;)

I also think it was a sad day when they turned the individual team sites into cookie cutters, but that's probably a whole 'nother topic.

But, worth expanding on, if desired, run with it! Talk to us.

[Wolf Hopper]

Invited SMEs: Another topic worth discussing is your thoughts on subscription baseball sites versus free baseball sites. And, please, let us recognize that, among our SMEs, we have folks affiliated with both types of sites - and, perhaps the ideal way to handle this one is to share opinions without labeling or implying that one way right or wrong. Thanks.

[cubfan33]

I ride both sides of this fence and can answer very honestly that I think you get what you pay for. Mr. Forman has mentioned the costs involved with running a "free" website and many of the blogs run on the online equivalent of tips. There's a definite value decision - is the site offering something worth both my time and money and is it replaceable? In some sense, everything is replaceable. Ron Calloway will take up a spot in the lineup the same way Vlad Guerrero did, but I think any Expo fan will argue there's a significant qualititative difference. Most online decisions aren't as easy - it's much more Blalock vs Teixeira than it is stud vs. scrub. There are few sites I would pay for, but quite a few that I would miss if they vanished. In the end, it is up to the market to decide the worth of any endeavor and failing at least a break-even, it becomes up to the individual/group to absorb costs if it's worth it to them.

I think blogs can survive as the non-profits of the online world - low cost, low overhead - but major growth might make it prohibitive. Sites with a broader reach will either have to figure out advertising or subscription models.

[bblinks]

All you need is for Chris Berman to give you a nickname like "Rumple" and you may have gotten upgraded to first class with that fame! ;)


My fear is that if Chris Berman ever pinned a nickname on me, it'd be "Red". :-)

But, worth expanding on, if desired, run with it! Talk to us.

Well, at the time MLB pulled all the team web sites under one roof, there was a wide disparity in terms of quality. The Dodgers always had a cutting-edge site, and the Mariners weren't too far behind. At the other end of the spectrum, the Marlins and Padres always seem to slug it out for worst site in the Baseball Weekly annual review of MLB team sites.

I suppose MLB Advanded Media helped elminate that disparity, but at the same time, the sites lost any semblance of local flavor. Why they couldn't simply unite them under the same roof the way the NFL, NBA and NHL did - while still allowing the teams to do their own thing - I don't know. As it stands, to visit one site is to visit them all. Blah.

[bblinks]

Invited SMEs: Another topic worth discussing is your thoughts on subscription baseball sites versus free baseball sites.

Anybody running a pay site is a capitalist pig.

OK, that got your attention, didn't it? :-)

Seriously though, I think there's room out there for free sites and subscription sites, much like there's room for network television and pay-per-view. Some sites are only able to provide the types of specialized content they do because they can pass the costs along to the site visitors. If there's an audience willing to foot that bill, more power to them. We're free to decide as individuals what's worth paying for and what's not.

No matter what business you're involved in, I don't think making money (or at least trying to) is anything to be ashamed of.

On the other hand, I also don't think there will ever be a shortage of free sites, either because the types of content offered aren't conducive to a PPV audience (like my own), or because they're run by individuals (much like this site) who do it for their own enjoyment.

It's like the old analogy about chocolate and vanilla - there's something for everybody depending on your wants, needs and interests.

jms

[BaseballAlmanac]

Good morning everyone,

I am sorry about joining in so late. I am Sean Holtz and the webmaster of Baseball Almanac (http://www.baseball-almanac.com), Baseball Fever (http://www.baseball-fever.com), Baseball Box Scores (http://www.baseball-boxscores.com) and Today in Baseball History (http://www.baseball-todayinbaseballhistory.com) - not to mention two other sites completely unrelated too baseball.

I will quickly reply to each and then try to be a bit more involved early on:

State of the internet and baseball.

I love the current state of baseball on the Internet. So many sites produce so much amazing content that I can visit any one of a dozen sites and truly get lost for hours. I hope it gets better.

Making money? Aspirations?

No & none. I have a career in law enforcement and am about nine years away from a full retirement. The sites simply keep me out of trouble and provide me with many wonderful learning experiences (Example: this week I was invited to work with National Geographic on an upcoming April article). I believe it was another Sean who wrote, "The bandwidth bills are always a killer. The more popular your website is, the more you have to pay for that popularity" and that was as accurate as it gets. For the first year-and-a-half I had no ads anywhere and loved it that way. Once the bills began approaching a thousand a month it became clear that my salary was not going to be enough anymore so now I do work hard at making money to stay above water and continue growing each of the sites.

What's the funniest story (that you can share in public) related to your experience with your baseball Internet endeavor?

My daughter is seven. Last year she shared a PC with me that had her games and my passions. One day she actually built her own little page (using a recent file which happened to be my index page) telling me she loved me and then uploaded it to Baseball Almanac (http://www.baseball-almanac.com). When I got home she proudly showed me her work. I laughed & laughed & laughed and wondered how many people thought we had been hacked or had some really weird sense of humor. I also printed it out quickly (still hangs next to me in my den) and put back the original page!

Do any of you ever get angry or challenging responses from team representatives?

No, and its actually been just the opposite. I've now worked with more than twenty of the teams and spoken with some mlb folks more than once. My most recent was with the Cubs on uniform numbers and before that I spoke / opened for the General Manager of the Florida Marlins at Pro Player during a SABR meeting. We've disagreed more than once, but its been great working out the details so both of us can be happy...

The topic is: mlb.com - what do you think of that site?

To say they've come a long way would be an epic understatement. I'm sure many of us remember them from years gone past and seeing that transition to its current state leaves me longing for a budget about 1/100 theirs! I look forward to seeing their evolution and only wish I knew more people "inside" so a communication channel could be opened to discuss occasional errors in their data.

Sean
Baseball Almanac (http://www.baseball-almanac.com)
"Baseball Almanac: Sharing Baseball. Sharing History."

[sportswired]

I've decided to pass on the costs to the advertisers and not the visitors themselves and its working out pretty well so far.

The cost is obviously page with lots of advertising but I am still working on integrating it better so it blends in a bit more with the content.

I've thought about offering subscriptions to my minor league data but my gut tells me that I'm not quite there yet. Since I am the only site that offers all minor league stats, I thought it would be a good idea but at one point but I fear that I will alienate and upset a lot of people.

I think pay sites are fine if it means that you get something that is worth paying for. I mean, we take for granted that information used to cost money all the time. Now, we get it for free and we forget that on the other end, there is someone or a team of people working dilligently to provide us with this information.

[Wolf Hopper]

Why they couldn't simply unite them under the same roof the way the NFL, NBA and NHL did - while still allowing the teams to do their own thing - I don't know. As it stands, to visit one site is to visit them all. Blah.

Well said John - from a creative standpoint, I agree. Another factor on why they probably did it - less labor required, most likely. They went the cheap route.

[Wolf Hopper]

My daughter is seven. Last year she shared a PC with me that had her games and my passions. One day she actually built her own little page (using a recent file which happened to be my index page) telling me she loved me and then uploaded it to Baseball Almanac (http://www.baseball-almanac.com). When I got home she proudly showed me her work. I laughed & laughed & laughed and wondered how many people thought we had been hacked or had some really weird sense of humor. I also printed it out quickly (still hangs next to me in my den) and put back the original page!


Sean - great story - and welcome to the roundtable! Thanks for joining.

Seven? Creating files and uploading them? Incredible. Awesome. NetShrine.com requires a ton of updating. Is she looking for a PT job? ;)

[Wolf Hopper]

Seriously though, I think there's room out there for free sites and subscription sites, much like there's room for network television and pay-per-view. Some sites are only able to provide the types of specialized content they do because they can pass the costs along to the site visitors. If there's an audience willing to foot that bill, more power to them. We're free to decide as individuals what's worth paying for and what's not.

This is pretty much my view as well. Presently, I only subscribe to one "pay" site - BaseballAmerica.com

Partly because of the specialized content - and mostly because of the smart way they handle it. I've been a BBA (the paper) subscriber for a long time (about 13 years?). When you subscribe to the paper, they set you up with an online account (as part of the deal). It's a very easy process. (Not surprising. FWIW, in terms of customer service, BBA is top of the charts. Each year now, when I call to renew on the paper, I'm always amazed at how nice the people there are - - I called just yesterday and had a nice interaction with the person taking my order. They talk to you like a real person - very personal. Yes, I'm a raving fan of BBA!)

Back on topic, this is what I would like to see with other subscription sites - tie it in to something else (off the web). A book, a newsletter, some sort of monthly or annual hard product. It would make me more likely to part with my cash. Maybe it's silly? But, it's probably the same logic with those cheap SI helmet phones and the ESPN The Mag fleece pullovers. In the mind, you just want to feel like you're getting a deal.

As it is, I have yet to see something that is a subscription content that I cannot get for free, even if it's only 85% of the quality of the pay item, (it's the difference between "Sex and the City" and "The Simpsons"), or that will eventually become free content (soon enough) somewhere (like watching "Queer Eye" on NBC after it airs on cable).

Again, to John's point - neither (pay v. free) is better or bad - - "We're free to decide as individuals what's worth paying for and what's not" - - well said, and my :2cents: as well.

[SeanLahman]

To second what John SKliton said about MLB.com... the fact that they dumped all of the team sites and put up the generic content was a great loss. The NFL does a much better job. The league site is under one umbrella, and all of the e-commerce is centralized, but each team runs their own site, and so you have a good source for focused info on each team. About 3/4 of the teams post the entire contents of their media guides, and some, like the Cincinnati Bengals, have great writers that provide some of the best coverage of their teams.

Will Carroll mentioned some of the cool stuff they have, like condensed games, but their delivery of those features has been a mixed bag. Again, other leagues do a better job.

[BA_KG]

This is pretty much my view as well. Presently, I only subscribe to one "pay" site - BaseballAmerica.com

Partly because of the specialized content - and mostly because of the smart way they handle it. I've been a BBA (the paper) subscriber for a long time (about 13 years?). When you subscribe to the paper, they set you up with an online account (as part of the deal). It's a very easy process. (Not surprising. FWIW, in terms of customer service, BBA is top of the charts. Each year now, when I call to renew on the paper, I'm always amazed at how nice the people there are - - I called just yesterday and had a nice interaction with the person taking my order. They talk to you like a real person - very personal. Yes, I'm a raving fan of BBA!)


Thanks Steve -- check's in the mail.

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Steve -- check's in the mail.

Hey, I would have not said it, if it wasn't true. IIRC, years back, I even sent a fax to BBA complimenting the folks that handle the phones. I would never go to all that trouble unless I had my socks knocked off - which happens every time. :thumb:

[Wolf Hopper]

These discussions have been great. Thanks to all involved.

There were a number of other items that I had intended to be part of the planned agenda for the roundtable - things like the ideal future of baseball websites, sites besides your own that you admire, traits of sites that you do not admire, highlights and lowlights of your experience on the web to date - but, in the course of discussing topics so far, it seems we have already touched upon these - albeit perhaps in a "within grabbing distance of second base on a takeout slide" kind of way............

..............so, at this point, as we near the close of this wonderful roundtable, I'll throw it out to the invited SMEs and NDF members - - - - anything out there that someone wants to bring up and discuss (related to baseball on the Internet)?

[Skip]

I'm confused Steve, you talk like this is all but over. It just started 3 days ago. Was there a timeframe on the roundtable? I know everyone involved is very busy but I didn't think this would be such a short term thing.

We hardly knew ya.

[Wolf Hopper]

I did promise the SMEs that this would not be a huge drain on their time - and that it would only take a few days to complete.

[BA_KG]

I did promise the SMEs that this would not be a huge drain on their time - and that it would only take a few days to complete.

This is just me, but I certainly could stick around here and there for a few more days.

[Skip]

I wasnt trying to be a fly in the ointment - was just surprised that you seemed to be wrapping things up so quickly. I certainly don't want to over-impose on people's time. But ... the longer something like this exists, even sporadically, the better it is - and just a few days of back and forth, while interesting, is really just a diversion.

[Wolf Hopper]

This is just me, but I certainly could stick around here and there for a few more days.

Thanks Kevin - I don't intend on closing the thread - it will remain open for those that want to use it - - I just wanted to let the SMEs know that we're about to finish up on what I intended to do.

[bblinks]

This is just me, but I certainly could stick around here and there for a few more days.

Yeah, me too. I personally expected this to last a period of weeks, not days, and to tell you the truth, I'd have been able to participate even more had things not been as fast and furious.

I'll hang around a little longer and see where things go.

jms

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks John -

OK, NDF members - any questions or topics that you want to throw out for our invited SMEs?

[cubfan33]

Here's one ... where does Internet sports writing go from here? Are there some net-only writers who belong in the BBWAA or should there be an Internet Baseball Writing Association of some sort?

[sportswired]

I'll hang around too.

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Gary. I have another topic to discuss...........coming soon........

[Wolf Hopper]

Here's one ... where does Internet sports writing go from here? Are there some net-only writers who belong in the BBWAA or should there be an Internet Baseball Writing Association of some sort?

Good question. Thanks Will. The process with how writers get into the BBWAA is questionable to me, now - with the whole "buddy" nomination thing. It really is a club - more than an association.

Internet Baseball Writing Association? That could be interesting. But, what do they get to do? Awards? Another Hall?

[Wolf Hopper]

Thanks Gary. I have another topic to discuss...........coming soon........Here it is:

Personally, when I started NetShrine, in the beginning, I had no idea what I was doing. I knew nothing about web design, coding, etc. (Some may maintain that even today, I do not know squat - and they would have a pretty good case.)

Five years later, looking back, if I could do some things at NetShrine differently, I would change them. In fact, there is much that I would like to be different. But, in reality, to change the things that I want, and to do them in (what I now consider) the right or better way, it would almost be the same as starting from zero and recreating the wheel. It's a big project and I've never been able to personally sign off on the amount of time that it would take to get this done.

To the invited SMEs - regarding your web endeavors - do you also have these moments of looking back and thinking "boy, if I can do that again, I would do it different"? If you have such moments, do you file them away, like me, or have you actually taken action on them? If the latter, how did that work out? Details! Please! ;)

[sportswired]

In the last 3 years, since I have started the Baseball-Wired, Sports-Wired, Baseball Cube project, I have re-started several times.

But there are 2 sides to my coin.

1. The web design
2. The database.

The web design can be changed at any time and though it is usually a big job to do it, I have often thought that there were many things that I would do differently if I could start over and I have actually gone ahead and revamped the entire look and feel of the site. It takes a while to do and I don't pay anyone (except myself) so I suppose having that option makes the decision easier. But I can understand that redesigning Sports-Wired.Com can take about 80 hours of work and at a make-believe rate of $30/hour, that's $2400. That's quite a bit for what "seems" like a simple task, building a web page. But its not because there is just so much to think about and incorporate into your code. And since I don't just use plain old HTML to build my site (I use ASP), there is a lot more logic programming which takes a bit longer.

The Database is the lifeline of sites like mine. Without it, the site would be empty. All of the content displayed on the site is pulled from my databases which have taken 3 years to compile. Starting over with the data is not an easy task and it is very risky. I add and remove new fields now and again, I add tables, remove tables but as far as overhauling, never.

I can't say that there is anything right now that I would have done differently and I think that since Sports-Wired.Com is a one man operation, I have the flexibility and autonomy to make all the decisions and changes that I need, when I need them.

[KCBOOMER]

A growing issue I see developing is sites falling in love with their own analysis and opinions at the expense of watching the humans perform. A small example of the (and by no means am I intending to pick on him or cast aspersions upon the site itself) Voros McCracken's study that announced that pitchers have little to do with the outcome of balls in play. This was picked up as gospel for months until another analyst at the same site showed the flaws in the analysis. The rebuttal didn't wipeout McCracken's assertion but did weaken it quite a bit.

The questions I want to ask the panelists is how do you protect yourself from an overweaning sense of self righteousness? How do you keep from using value loaded words like "liar", "dumb", "idiots", etc, and keep your work on a professional level? How do you maintain quality control (meaning re-evaluate your work and opinions to see how they stand the test of time)?

I know that is several questions but it all goes to the quality of your product.

[Wolf Hopper]

I know that is several questions but it all goes to the quality of your product.

I think the answer is twofold:

1. Recognize and accept that you will make mistakes.
2. Ensure that your mistakes will become learning experiences.

If you do these two steps, it's the best QA that you can probably provide - short of a peer review (or more formal check) before going live.

[GGC]

Steve, hi. I'm really late to the party, but I did want to check out the roundtable. Very interesting.

GGC

[Wolf Hopper]

Better late than never GGC!

[gyb13]

Here's something for all the SME's:

if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it? Is there any condition on which you woulnd't take it (e.g. would rather keep a focus on the game as a whole than on one specific team)? For you, what would be the ideal situation, if you could make that jump (a la, say, keith law)?

[Skip]

And another ... what is your personal take on the CIR hoax about Guerrero to the Tribe. Funny or not? Hurtful to the credibility of internet based info sources or not? Good attention 'getter' or not? Feel free to expand in this area.

[KCBOOMER]

I think the answer is twofold:

1. Recognize and accept that you will make mistakes.
2. Ensure that your mistakes will become learning experiences.

If you do these two steps, it's the best QA that you can probably provide - short of a peer review (or more formal check) before going live.

To be honest I would have preferred a reply from the SME's. If the question is not appropriate then I withdraw it.

[Wolf Hopper]

To be honest I would have preferred a reply from the SME's.

What am I? Chopped liver? :stinker:

I've alerted the SMEs of the fact that some questions have come in.

[bblinks]

Here's something for all the SME's:

if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it? Is there any condition on which you woulnd't take it (e.g. would rather keep a focus on the game as a whole than on one specific team)? For you, what would be the ideal situation, if you could make that jump (a la, say, keith law)?

I personally would never want to work for MLB. The politics at that level of the organization have to be incredible.

Working for an MLB team would probably be interesting, but when it comes right down to it, I wouldn't trade what I'm doing now for any other job. I love the flexibility I have in being my own boss, and working out of a home office beats the heck out of commuting every day.

I'm not making boatloads of money, but after having been a HS teacher for 14 years and putting up with that mess every day I've realized that your own happiness has to be the foremost objective. The boatload of money is only a close second. :-)

jms

[bblinks]

To the invited SMEs - regarding your web endeavors - do you also have these moments of looking back and thinking "boy, if I can do that again, I would do it different"? If you have such moments, do you file them away, like me, or have you actually taken action on them? If the latter, how did that work out? Details! Please! ;)

Yes, I have those moments about twelve times a day. :-)

Those who have been visiting Baseball Links since its inception know that the site has been changed several times over the years. What started as a straight HTML site grew into a monster that just wasn't possible to maintain any longer. That prompted me (in '98 or '99, IIRC) to re-develop the whole site and make it database-oriented. It took that unmanageable monster and tamed it, so to speak, so I'd have to say it was well worth the effort. It was time-consuming and expensive, but still highly worthwhile.

Since that time, I've been compiling a list of changes I'd like to make down the road - and the end of that road is about to come into view. Version 2.0 of the Baseball Links project is going to commence in 2004 with (hopefully!) many improvements - both for the users and me.

jms

[BA_KG]

Killing many birds at one stone . . .

----------------------------------
where does Internet sports writing go from here? Are there some net-only writers who belong in the BBWAA or should there be an Internet Baseball Writing Association of some sort?
----------------------------------

I really don’t see the need to create a separate organization, but then again, we’re not an internet-only publication. I certainly think internet-only writers should be eligible for the BBWAA and or other orgs. I’d also say that I think MLB should deal with internet-only writers differently as far as credentials go. Currently, internet-only writers are pretty simply dismissed into that group, as opposed to being evaluated on a case-by-case basis. I still think 98% of them should not be credential-ized, but there is a small portion who deserve it based on the same reasons they are given to the ‘traditional’ press.

----------------------------------
do you also have these moments of looking back and thinking "boy, if I can do that again, I would do it different"?
----------------------------------

If you don’t have these moments, you are doomed to fail. Mao said, “All genuine knowledge originates in direct experience.” And I believe that. Learn from your mistakes, but always move on.

----------------------------------
How do you keep from using value loaded words like "liar", "dumb", "idiots", etc, and keep your work on a professional level? How do you maintain quality control (meaning re-evaluate your work and opinions to see how they stand the test of time)?
----------------------------------

Um, by being a professional? Everyone can play pretend GM and say this guy should do this and this guy should do that, but too many people get into this strangely arrogant, defensive, and downright stupid name calling and genuinely think that some of these people are idiots, and whether or not that’s responsible is irrelevant, it just makes the writer look like an idiot to me. Idiots do not work in high-level front office jobs in baseball and for every move made, there are 100 reasons behind the scenes that we all will never know about.

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if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it? Is there any condition on which you wouldn’t take it (e.g. would rather keep a focus on the game as a whole than on one specific team)? For you, what would be the ideal situation, if you could make that jump (a la, say, keith law)?
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I might, and I’ve had certain preliminary discussions with teams, but really I don’t know because specifics and money we’re never discussed. I gotta agree with JMS – I work at home and manage myself and have done so for four years, and it would take a lot to get me to change.

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And another ... what is your personal take on the CIR hoax about Guerrero to the Tribe. Funny or not? Hurtful to the credibility of internet based info sources or not? Good attention 'getter' or not? Feel free to expand in this area.
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AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL idea. Many folks within the industry trust some of these sources (look at what happned with Schilling and SOSH) and when this happens it affects the credibility of ALL. I know many wasted calls went out last night when this is reported and the person who runs CIR has now lost credibility for a long time, and it will effect how others look at him.

[bblinks]

But I can understand that redesigning Sports-Wired.Com can take about 80 hours of work and at a make-believe rate of $30/hour, that's $2400.

That make-believe rate isn't even terribly realistic. The going rate for straight HTML work is somewhere in the $40-$60/hr range, and any kind of programming (by a competent programmer) will run closer to $100/hr.

Starting over with the data is not an easy task and it is very risky. I add and remove new fields now and again, I add tables, remove tables but as far as overhauling, never.

This reminds me of another point I meant to make in my last post. Starting Baseball Links back in 1995 was a pretty simple proposition. Keeping up with the tremendous growth in the number of sites wasn't nearly as easy, but it's been doable. But when I decided to launch Football-Links.com a few years ago, I found that starting a new links site at this point in time is much different. It took about 18 months to build the database to the point that it was even mildly worthwhile, and it's still not nearly as comprehensive as Baseball Links. I had planned a while back to start a Basketball-Links.com and Hockey-Links.com as well, but after the experiences I had getting Football-Links.com off the ground, I think I'll pass.

Anybody want to buy those domain names? :)

jms

[Doug Pappas]

Here's one ... where does Internet sports writing go from here? Are there some net-only writers who belong in the BBWAA or should there be an Internet Baseball Writing Association of some sort?

Jumping back in to respond to a few of the new posts:

Any IBWA would suffer the same weaknesses as the BBWAA. Either it would have similar membership criteria ("open to anyone who's run a Weblog for at least X years"), in which case there would be no quality control, or it would provide for election of members, in which case those not allowed in would scream about elitism. And really, what's the point? It's not like MLB is looking for an excuse to grant more press credentials, or the world needs another set of postseason awards.


The questions I want to ask the panelists is how do you protect yourself from an overweaning sense of self righteousness? How do you keep from using value loaded words like "liar", "dumb", "idiots", etc, and keep your work on a professional level? How do you maintain quality control (meaning re-evaluate your work and opinions to see how they stand the test of time)?

If you're writing while excited (positively or negatively), try not to post until you've re-read your work while in a calmer mood. As for quality control, try to learn from your mistakes, and know that if you've got more than a handful of readers, they'll be happy to identify those mistakes for you.

if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it?

This question is moot for me, at least as long as Bud Selig is alive...

[sweaver]

II'm not making boatloads of money, but after having been a HS teacher for 14 years and putting up with that mess every day I've realized that your own happiness has to be the foremost objective.
Amen,brother! Preach that gospel!

[Skip]

The going rate for straight HTML work is somewhere in the $40-$60/hr range, and any kind of programming (by a competent programmer) will run closer to $100/hr.
... or more. :agree: :thumb:
I'm not making boatloads of money, but after having been a HS teacher for 14 years and putting up with that mess every day I've realized that your own happiness has to be the foremost objective. Sounds odd, since I've been making a lucrative part-time living in part doing what's discussed in the earlier quote, but I'm actually thinking about starting to teach HS math and science. Thanks for the, uhh ..., downer. Sigh!

[hmrsf]

Killing many birds at one stone . . .

----------------------------------
And another ... what is your personal take on the CIR hoax about Guerrero to the Tribe. Funny or not? Hurtful to the credibility of internet based info sources or not? Good attention 'getter' or not? Feel free to expand in this area.
----------------------------------

AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL idea. Many folks within the industry trust some of these sources (look at what happned with Schilling and SOSH) and when this happens it affects the credibility of ALL. I know many wasted calls went out last night when this is reported and the person who runs CIR has now lost credibility for a long time, and it will effect how others look at him.


This is along the same lines of my question. This certainly will not be the last hoax. How can teams or players prevent such a quick spread of disimformation?

Also will there ever be a player/ fan interactive site. Is that the next level internet baseball?

Thanks for such a great thread and the great sites all of you run.

[nyy26wc]

And another ... what is your personal take on the CIR hoax about Guerrero to the Tribe. Funny or not? Hurtful to the credibility of internet based info sources or not? Good attention 'getter' or not? Feel free to expand in this area.

He's completely lost his credibility. After this, I'll never use him again as a source.

[sportswired]

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if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it? Is there any condition on which you woulnd't take it (e.g. would rather keep a focus on the game as a whole than on one specific team)? For you, what would be the ideal situation, if you could make that jump (a la, say, keith law)?
====================================

It would depend on whether it involved giving up Sports-Wired. I don't think my local team is hiring right now (The Expos) and if any other team came calling for whatever reason (though I don't see why they would), it might be a dream but if it meant giving up Sports-Wired, I would probably say no.

I have often dreamed of someone wanting to buy my site and data from me but even that might be a lucrative short-term gain but I am in this for the long haul and I want to build a bigger, better and strong baseball web site, for all the die-hard fans.

And if I make a bit of money on the side, so be it.

[nyy26wc]

if you had the opportunity to take a job with MLB or with one MLB team, would you take it? Is there any condition on which you woulnd't take it (e.g. would rather keep a focus on the game as a whole than on one specific team)? For you, what would be the ideal situation, if you could make that jump (a la, say, keith law)?

I am so bad at finding jobs that I can't even imagine an MLB team making an offer to me.

[gyb13]

that's why it's a hypothetical question, lee ;)

[nyy26wc]

that's why it's a hypothetical question, lee ;)

It's probably in everyone's best interests that I never look for a MLB job.

Right after I got my law degree, Clinton signed legislation making it a federal offense to even respond to any of my resumes. After I got my computer programming degree, computer job openings seemed to become a thing of the past.

With my track record, all I have to do is start looking for a MLB job and bye bye MLB.

[Skip]

I guess this thing is dead. It was nice though - thanks again for setting it up Steve, and special thanks to those who participated. Hopefully some will continue to drop back in from time to time.

[Wolf Hopper]

Yes - it has run its course - thanks to all for your part of it - esp. the SMEs!

It was interesting to see the common ideas, stories, etc. And, I think the information herein is useful to some, in some ways, as well.

Again, thanks to all!