NetShrine
05-01-2001, 11:59 AM
Nice ESPN.com feature by Neyer today:
Tuesday, May 1
Bonds not only star to struggle in postseason
by Rob Neyer
ESPN.com
Last week, when doing some research on Willie Mays, I discovered something that, in all my years of doing this sort of thing, had completely evaded my consciousness.
Willie Mays was a choker.
Or rather, there were people who thought he was a choker. Why? Because in four World Series, Mays batted .239 with zero home runs. That's right, the great Willie Mays, in four World Series and 71 at-bats, didn't manage even a single home run.
But nobody remembers that. And why not? Because, frankly, it would be silly to let 71 at-bats seriously color our opinion of a player who performed so brilliantly over a career that included 10,881 regular-season at-bats and 660 home runs.
Which brings us to Barry Bonds. As you might remember, I recently labeled Bonds a contender for the title of Greatest Left Fielder Ever. The response to this was generally positive, but a few naysayers argued, "How could Bonds be the greatest? Just look at what he's done in October, when it mattered."
No doubt about it, Barry Bonds has been ... somewhat less than effective in postseason play. In this case, the numbers tell the story: 20 games, 97 at-bats, a .196 batting average, just six RBI and one home run. Bonds still hasn't played in a World Series, and he's partly to blame for that.
But will anybody remember? If Bonds doesn't eventually play for a World Series winner, maybe somebody will. Certainly, a fair number of Pirates and Giants fan will remember, and you can't blame them. But history won't remember, any more than history remembers that Ty Cobb -- a career .366 hitter in the regular season -- batted just .262 in 65 World Series at-bats.
Last summer, Orlando Cepeda went into the Hall of Fame. He gained entry into Cooperstown's hallowed halls despite posting a .207 batting average in 87 postseason at-bats, along with a .368 slugging percentage and a .233 on-base percentage. But did you hear anyone -- and I mean anyone -- bringing up Orlando Cepeda's postseason failures?
This summer, Dave Winfield will go into the Hall of Fame. In 81 postseason at-bats, Winfield batted .173. But in January, when Winfield was elected to the Hall in his first season of eligibility, did you hear anyone mention that postseason batting average?
Roger Maris isn't a Hall of Famer, but a fair number of people think that he should be. One of the arguments made for Maris is that he was a good clutch hitter. Perhaps. But not in the postseason. Maris played in seven World Series, and batted just .217 with a .300 OBP and a .368 slugging percentage, all three figures considerably below his career regular-season marks.
In 107 postseason at-bats, Robin Ventura has posted a .168 batting average. Have you ever heard anyone describe Ventura as a "choker"? And what about Bernie Williams? In 71 World Series at-bats, he's got 10 hits, for a brilliant .141 batting average. Anybody heard talk of Bernie killing the Yankees in the clutch? Of course not, because the Yankees always win the World Series.
And finally, we have the immortal Chick Hafey. Hafey's Hall of Fame plaque mentions his batting title in 1931, his .317 lifetime batting average and his 10 straight hits in 1929. His plaque does not, however, mention his .205 batting average in 88 World Series at-bats. Here are Barry Bonds and Chick Hafey in the postseason:
Games AB Runs RBI OBP Slug
Hafey 23 88 5 2 .222 .284
Bonds 27 97 12 6 .297 .299
Hafey was a pretty good ballplayer. He might even have a Hall of Fame case, if he'd played brilliantly in the World Series. Instead, he played horribly ... and nobody held it against him, not even the Hall of Fame's Veterans Committee.
Looking at this from another angle: in 205 postseason at-bats, Marquis Grissom has batted .328, with a solid 825 OPS. Do analysts hail Grissom as a great clutch hitter? No, they don't. And they shouldn't, because while 208 at-bats might seem like a lot, the difference between hitting .328 and .228 in 208 at-bats is about 20 hits. That is to say, statistically there is no real difference.
My point isn't that Bonds' postseason performance doesn't count. Everything counts. But if it counts for Barry Bonds, then shouldn't it count for Ty Cobb and Willie Mays and Orlando Cepeda and Dave Winfield, too? And since very few of us -- writers, fans, broadcasters, etc. -- are willing to hold Cobb's or Mays' or Cepeda's or Winfield's postseason failures against them, it seems to me that Bonds deserves exactly the same break.
Tuesday, May 1
Bonds not only star to struggle in postseason
by Rob Neyer
ESPN.com
Last week, when doing some research on Willie Mays, I discovered something that, in all my years of doing this sort of thing, had completely evaded my consciousness.
Willie Mays was a choker.
Or rather, there were people who thought he was a choker. Why? Because in four World Series, Mays batted .239 with zero home runs. That's right, the great Willie Mays, in four World Series and 71 at-bats, didn't manage even a single home run.
But nobody remembers that. And why not? Because, frankly, it would be silly to let 71 at-bats seriously color our opinion of a player who performed so brilliantly over a career that included 10,881 regular-season at-bats and 660 home runs.
Which brings us to Barry Bonds. As you might remember, I recently labeled Bonds a contender for the title of Greatest Left Fielder Ever. The response to this was generally positive, but a few naysayers argued, "How could Bonds be the greatest? Just look at what he's done in October, when it mattered."
No doubt about it, Barry Bonds has been ... somewhat less than effective in postseason play. In this case, the numbers tell the story: 20 games, 97 at-bats, a .196 batting average, just six RBI and one home run. Bonds still hasn't played in a World Series, and he's partly to blame for that.
But will anybody remember? If Bonds doesn't eventually play for a World Series winner, maybe somebody will. Certainly, a fair number of Pirates and Giants fan will remember, and you can't blame them. But history won't remember, any more than history remembers that Ty Cobb -- a career .366 hitter in the regular season -- batted just .262 in 65 World Series at-bats.
Last summer, Orlando Cepeda went into the Hall of Fame. He gained entry into Cooperstown's hallowed halls despite posting a .207 batting average in 87 postseason at-bats, along with a .368 slugging percentage and a .233 on-base percentage. But did you hear anyone -- and I mean anyone -- bringing up Orlando Cepeda's postseason failures?
This summer, Dave Winfield will go into the Hall of Fame. In 81 postseason at-bats, Winfield batted .173. But in January, when Winfield was elected to the Hall in his first season of eligibility, did you hear anyone mention that postseason batting average?
Roger Maris isn't a Hall of Famer, but a fair number of people think that he should be. One of the arguments made for Maris is that he was a good clutch hitter. Perhaps. But not in the postseason. Maris played in seven World Series, and batted just .217 with a .300 OBP and a .368 slugging percentage, all three figures considerably below his career regular-season marks.
In 107 postseason at-bats, Robin Ventura has posted a .168 batting average. Have you ever heard anyone describe Ventura as a "choker"? And what about Bernie Williams? In 71 World Series at-bats, he's got 10 hits, for a brilliant .141 batting average. Anybody heard talk of Bernie killing the Yankees in the clutch? Of course not, because the Yankees always win the World Series.
And finally, we have the immortal Chick Hafey. Hafey's Hall of Fame plaque mentions his batting title in 1931, his .317 lifetime batting average and his 10 straight hits in 1929. His plaque does not, however, mention his .205 batting average in 88 World Series at-bats. Here are Barry Bonds and Chick Hafey in the postseason:
Games AB Runs RBI OBP Slug
Hafey 23 88 5 2 .222 .284
Bonds 27 97 12 6 .297 .299
Hafey was a pretty good ballplayer. He might even have a Hall of Fame case, if he'd played brilliantly in the World Series. Instead, he played horribly ... and nobody held it against him, not even the Hall of Fame's Veterans Committee.
Looking at this from another angle: in 205 postseason at-bats, Marquis Grissom has batted .328, with a solid 825 OPS. Do analysts hail Grissom as a great clutch hitter? No, they don't. And they shouldn't, because while 208 at-bats might seem like a lot, the difference between hitting .328 and .228 in 208 at-bats is about 20 hits. That is to say, statistically there is no real difference.
My point isn't that Bonds' postseason performance doesn't count. Everything counts. But if it counts for Barry Bonds, then shouldn't it count for Ty Cobb and Willie Mays and Orlando Cepeda and Dave Winfield, too? And since very few of us -- writers, fans, broadcasters, etc. -- are willing to hold Cobb's or Mays' or Cepeda's or Winfield's postseason failures against them, it seems to me that Bonds deserves exactly the same break.