Greg Maddux - FA; signs with Cubs [merged threads]

[Wolf Hopper]

Any thoughts as to where he ends up?

[clemente21]

San Diego: New ballpark, decimated pitching staff.
Montreal/Vegas: If Steve Stone's group buys the Expos, didn't Maddux go to school in Vegas?

[rcartman28]

I think I've heard San Diego mentioned before, too....although I don't think the Padres are going to give him $14 million or whatever he was making this year.

[gyb13]

http://www.netshrine.com/vbulletin2/showthread.php?t=6508
here's last year's thread, in which there were rumors he'd go to SD or AZ

[KCBOOMER]

You know we all love Greg Maddux but the Braves offense disguised the fact that he was just another pitcher last year. I mean numbers were eerily like Jeff Suppans. He made $15M last year and his agent is Scott Boras.

Now something has to give. Either some time has to lose it's mind or Maddux' salary has to come back to earth. No way SD ponies up that kind of money and AZ has all kinds of bad contracts it's trying to get rid of.

He could be tough to move.

[pathogan]

...eveyones favorite stat pitcher has a tough time finding buyers at HALF what he made last year...the Braves are simply glad to be off the hook...he looks so mediocore that the METs seem like a lock for him :rolleyes:

[gyb13]

maddux and glavine together at shea? THAT would be weird

[manny tortolero]

Few will be behind him with his actual cache. Could be San Diego or Philladelphia by the new parks. If he can drops his salary demands some teams could be interested using as their ace (ChiSox, St.Louis). Never is sure say that NYY won't be there.

[JamesI]

Few will be behind him with his actual cache. Could be San Diego or Philladelphia by the new parks. If he can drops his salary demands some teams could be interested using as their ace (ChiSox, St.Louis). Never is sure say that NYY won't be there.
I doubt the Yanks would be interested, I think they are likely to go younger for pitching rather than replacing old with old...

[gyb13]

Could be San Diego or Philladelphia by the new parks.i guess it also depends on how people think these parks will play. should he try to move to a pitchers' park to keep his (non-adjusted) numbers looking better?

[Skip]

Maddux seems to me like a guy who'll pick the place he wants to be moreso than finding the place that'll make him look the best.

[rcartman28]

Haven't looked at Philly's new park yet, but Petco Park's dimension, according to the Padres site, is 334 left field line, 367 to left, 402 to left center, 396 to dead center, 411 to right center (the field seems to be shaped something like the state of South Carolina), 378 to right, and 322 at the right field pole.

[sweaver]

Maddux is supposedly talking to the Giants, which would help keep his ERA down.

[pwdennis]

Maddux is supposedly talking to the Giants, which would help keep his ERA down.

Don't know about that, but if I were SF I wouldn't agree to any long-term deals, and wouldn't want to go more than $5M per season except on a one season basis, or as non-guaranteed money after the first season

[jvonbokel]

Does anybody have any thoughts on where he'll end up? Time is slowly running out, and I haven't heard anything lately. It seems to me that Boras is overpricing him again, but without the arbitration offer to fall back on, he'll have to sign cheap. If so, I think Maddux will get multiple offers in the same price range, and he'll wind up chosing a team based mostly on winning potential.

[Skip]

... or location.

[WiredTiger]

Maddux definitely seems to be holding out hope that his name value will lure one team into making a crazy offer. Cubs, Padres, Cardinals, Yankees are all teams that would seem to be a fit.

[Craig S.]

I guess it's an indication of the market's direction, but I'm surprised at the lack of interest. I know he's not the ace he was several years ago, but he'd still help a staff.

Again, I think Boras is likely aiming too high right now. Maybe it's part of some strategy that he doesn't feel the need to share.

[Rajah]

I watched Greg all year. His record is deceiving. He's not that good anymore. I wouldn't want him for anything more than a 5 or a 4 on a team with weak pitching. He had too many games last year where he just blew up. Homers seem to fly out of the park when he's pitching. He still strikes out hitters at a reasonable rate and doesn't walk people. But the home runs. I haven't looked, but I would guess his HR/9 is way up from just 2 years ago.

[jvonbokel]

First of all, in response to the idea that he's going downhill, take a look at his pre/post all-star splits from last year. After the break, he was 9-3 with a 3.03 ERA and only gave up 7HR, compared to his pre-break numbers of 7-8 with a 4.63 ERA and 17HR. My theory (and believe me, it has no factual basis) is that he was perhaps annoyed early on by the fact that he couldn't get a satisfactory long-term deal, or maybe there were grumblings around that he shouldn't have accepted the arbitration offer, which could have distracted him.

Also, I'm surprised more hasn't been made of the fact that he's so close to not only 300 wins, but 3000 K's as well. He'll almost certainly make the magical win total this year, and very likely hit the K plateau late in 2005.

[tyruschen]

Does anybody have any thoughts on where he'll end up?

Padres, Cards, Cubs all show interests on Mad Dog. But the best offer is two-year 10-12 millions margin. Never image Boras will take this.

[WiredTiger]

First of all, in response to the idea that he's going downhill, take a look at his pre/post all-star splits from last year. After the break, he was 9-3 with a 3.03 ERA and only gave up 7HR, compared to his pre-break numbers of 7-8 with a 4.63 ERA and 17HR. My theory (and believe me, it has no factual basis) is that he was perhaps annoyed early on by the fact that he couldn't get a satisfactory long-term deal, or maybe there were grumblings around that he shouldn't have accepted the arbitration offer, which could have distracted him.

Also, I'm surprised more hasn't been made of the fact that he's so close to not only 300 wins, but 3000 K's as well. He'll almost certainly make the magical win total this year, and very likely hit the K plateau late in 2005. jvonbokel... head over to the ICeBreaks forum and introduce yourself. Welcome to the site.

Those are both very good points. He also had some minor injuries in the start of the season that may have helped cause his bad start.

He would make a great addition to a team that needs to draw fans but I wouldn't over pay him and that is exactly what he is hoping someone would do.

[sweaver]

Maddux would be the #1 on the Reds. But for that matter, so would Ismael Valdes.

The market for proven pitchers is still a seller's market. Some, like Maddux and Millwood, are waiting out the first wave, and I think it's a good negotiating strategy. Someone will break down and overpay eventually. Maddux is a good bet for the Padres.

[jvonbokel]

So now that Millwood has chosen to accept arbitration, what does that say about the market? To me it says he wasn't able to find an offer he liked, similar to Maddux last year. The difference is this year Maddux doesn't have an arbitration offer waiting for him, so he's stuck with taking what he can get on the open market.

[Skip]

I think, fairly or unfairly, Maddux is viewed very skeptically by a large majority of teams due to questions about his downside, his agent, etc. It really comes down to whether he can find 1-2 teams that, despite the other 28, still consider him a premier #1 and (ideally) get in a bidding war. I'm not sure just how important the issues of 'being with a winner' or 'being closer to home' are to him.

My gut tells me that he won't get nearly what he wants this year and that he'll be stuck with a much lower offer in either $$$ or years or both.

[TimmyB]

I have a feeling Maddux is going to be this year's I-Rod; with the notable exception that I don't think anyone is going to pull a Loria and give him $10MM for one year or something like that.

He could do okay in SD or SF... but probably not for the kind of money Boras (I mean, Maddux) wants.

[jvonbokel]

For what it's worth, I just read on a Cards board (stltoday.com) that Maddux is willing to play for $5 or $6 million for the Cards or Cubs. This was reported by a few people (some Cards fans, some Cubs fans) who heard it in a newsbreak on the Dan Patrick show on ESPN 1000 in Chicago. I know the Cards are tight on money these days, but I think this would be a very good pickup for them, and hope they can find room for that salary in their budget.

[Rajah]

AM-670 The Score reports that with yesterday's signing of Roger Clemens by Houston, the Cubs are going to be making Greg Maddux an offer today.

We have a mini Boston - New York arms race going on here in the midwest. :D

[KCBOOMER]

We have a mini Boston - New York arms race going on here in the midwest. :D


Its an "old arms" race at that.

[KCBOOMER]

In today's Chicago Sun-Times Jay Mariotti is pushing the Cubs to "match" the Astros move by signing Greg Madduz to a two year deal at $10M per year. Claims the Cubs need to sweeten the pot to get Maddux to forgive them for lowballing him last time.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay14.html

[tyruschen]

He mentioned the Cubs' rotation is interior to Astros' right now. Is that right?

[SmedIndy]

Personally, I don't think it is, even without Maddux.

[gyb13]

In today's Chicago Sun-Times Jay Mariotti is pushing the Cubs to "match" the Astros move by signing Greg Madduz to a two year deal at $10M per year. saw some rumor in that the value is actually closer to 12-15 million

[Rajah]

In today's Chicago Sun-Times Jay Mariotti is pushing the Cubs to "match" the Astros move by signing Greg Madduz to a two year deal at $10M per year. Claims the Cubs need to sweeten the pot to get Maddux to forgive them for lowballing him last time.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay14.html
Fortunately for all involved, Jay Mariotti is one of the most mentally deficient sportswriters out there. His primary goal as a writer is to piss people off with his inane bullcrap.

The reports on the radio actually plugged it at 2 years, $14 million.

This is one case where I feel sports radio is the more reliable source. In conclusion, Jay Mariotti is the worst of his profession, and an embarrassment to sportswriters everywhere.

[Skip]

While Mariotti is very much what you say, he also said the deal was 2 yrs at 14M. His pitch was that the Cubs should sweeten it to 2/20 to make it happen.

[KCBOOMER]

While Mariotti is very much what you say, he also said the deal was 2 yrs at 14M. His pitch was that the Cubs should sweeten it to 2/20 to make it happen.

Thanks, Skip. I thought that was what I said. Mariotti is urging the Cubs to pay extra to atone for their past parsimony towards Maddux.

[SmedIndy]

Does Mariotti have a HOF vote? Just askin'???

[Skip]

Thanks, Skip. I thought that was what I said. Mariotti is urging the Cubs to pay extra to atone for their past parsimony towards Maddux.Sorry Boomer, actually I was responding to Rajah's post directly above mine ... but neglected to use a quote to indicate that fact.

[huskerdru]

Does Mariotti have a HOF vote? Just askin'???

Yes, he does. I saw him on Around the Horn a few days ago, where he discussed how he would vote should Rose be eligible.

[Rajah]

Skip: I was stating exactly what I had heard/read the offer to be. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Smed: I don't think he does. Don't newspapers usually run the ballots of whomever is on their staff that had a vote as part of the story on the HOF election? I'm pretty sure I didn't see any such thing associated with Mariotti. The only member of the Sun Times who does have one (I think) is Ron Rapoport, who, though a Rose supporter, is really the only member of that staff deserving of such an honor. Perhaps Mariotti was only discussing how he would vote IF he had a vote.

[Rajah]

As I thought:
Mariotti's only HoF related column:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay07.html
If he had a vote, he would have discussed it.


My feelings on Mariotti remain unchanged. Scumbag.

[Wolf Hopper]

OK, back on topic - - -
think Maddux knows/cares that pitchers report in a couple of weeks?

[gyb13]

it'd be interesting if baltimore got him

[Wolf Hopper]

Looks like the Cubs are the only player: http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=38020107

[Rajah]

I just can't see Maddux agreeing to be the Number 5 guy for anyone. Period. I think thats the main reason he hasn't signed with the Cubs. He probably wants a guarantee that Clement will be Number 5, and Zambrano 4. Of course, that will all be moot when Barrett looks in his glove and notices Zambrano's hand is still clutching the ball. Then, of course, there is the matter of Maddux's personal caddy.

[SmedIndy]

Paul Bako is on the Cubs - so that's taken care of already.

Maddux will have to realize he's #5 on that Cubs team.

[nyy26wc]

According to AP, the Dodgers are interested.

[Gosfgiants]

I'm starting to wonder if Maddux will be this year's Chuck Finley.

[Rajah]

He'll sign. I bet the Dodgers get him. I just don't see Maddux accepting any job that puts him as fifth starter making 20 to 25 starts. 5th starter is for rookies and bad pitchers.

[tyruschen]

Fans in Taiwan keep on moaning all the winter why Mad Dog with a agent named Boras is still unsigned. Please give me a good reason to shut their mouths quiet.

[captain_napalm]

Fans in Taiwan keep on moaning all the winter why Mad Dog with a agent named Boras is still unsigned. Please give me a good reason to shut their mouths quiet.

Only Mad Dog knows for sure. He's financially set, he already has a ring, he's got Cy Young awards, he's pretty much accomplished all that a player could accomplish, I would think.

Of course, if it were me, at this stage of my career (15+ years in the league), I'd be looking to pitch either closer to home, or for a contender. Ideally, it would be both :D

[KCBOOMER]

Fans in Taiwan keep on moaning all the winter why Mad Dog with a agent named Boras is still unsigned. Please give me a good reason to shut their mouths quiet.


That is exactly why he isn't signed. Maddux wants more dough than he is worth. He was basically a .500 pitcher that the Braves offense of 2003 made better. He made $15M last year and thinks that despite a mediocre year someone should pony up at least $10M a year for his services. Boras is using a tactic that has worked well for him in the past but not lately. He tells a team that their offer isn't big enough even if the team is the highest bidder and that they will have to sweeten their already high bid with more money.

Interestingly, Jay Mariotti, a Chicago baseball writer, has bought into that line of gibberish by saying the Cubs should pony up the extra dough to show "respect".

[Gib2]

It seems that the Cardinals have re-entered the Maddux sweepstakes. They have convinced Jim Edmonds and Izzy to defer salary for this year and are talking to Matt Morris about the same thing. I don' know if this will help them in signing Maddux, but at least they are trying to. On the surface that is.

[gyb13]

with their injuries and reinforced bullpen, they could use him

[Rajah]

Reports in Chicago are that the Giants are about to put in a bid for Maddux's services.

[pepper]

Reports in Chicago are that the Giants are about to put in a bid for Maddux's services.

supported by this article:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/13/GIANTS.TMP

[jvonbokel]

It comes down to three factors for Maddux at this point. Offensive/defensive support, proximity to his Vegas home, and of course pay.

I think he's realizing what the market will bear for his services, and I imagine all the offers are rather similar, so it comes down to support and geography. In terms of day to day team support, I don't think you can beat the Cards, but what are their post-season chances? With Maddux they'd go up a good bit considering he'd make a three way tie for ace with Morris and Woody, bumping Suppan to #4 and leaving 3 guys scrambling for the 5th spot (Marquis, Carpenter, and Haren). The only thing is St. Louis is a bit of a distance from Vegas, and can't compete with the likes of the west coast teams, which are apparently starting to show some interest.

Personally, I'd love to see him get win #300 and K #3000 in Cardinal Red, but I fear that Jocketty is the one man crazy enough to meet his contract demands, which are far too high.

[Gosfgiants]

With Maddux they'd go up a good bit considering he'd make a three way tie for ace with Morris and Woody, bumping Suppan to #4 and leaving 3 guys scrambling for the 5th spot (Marquis, Carpenter, and Haren)

I'm not sure Maddux falls into the Ace category anymore. I know he's asking ace money, but he's stuff is not what it once was. I'd put him as a three starter at best.

[jvonbokel]

True, but he'd definitely be in the top 3 on the Cards, or just about any other rotation for that matter (except maybe the Cubs).

[nyy26wc]

Now, there are stories that the Yankees are about to sign Maddux this year. On the other hand, Cashman denied it during a conference call this afternoon.

[Skip]

Now, there are stories that the Yankees are about to sign Maddux this year. On the other hand, Cashman denied it during a conference call this afternoon.Maddux is renowned for his fielding ... maybe they'll put him at 2nd base! :stinker:

[manny tortolero]

I don't think that Maddux will go to the Yanks, at least he learn to throws with his left arm. Sounds more as Boras behind this trying to push something after the warm interest for him this winter.

[KCBOOMER]

I am at a loss why the Yanks would even consider signing Maddux. If they did, some pitcher who makes a lot of money isn't going to pitch much.

If I am Maddux I don't sign with the Yanks unless I am guaranteed a starting slot. It would be hard to get 11 wins if you are working in middle relief.

[captain_napalm]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1736923

"Free-agent pitcher Greg Maddux will sign with the New York Yankees sometime later this week, according to a report on New York's WABC-TV.

The Bergen Record, a New Jersey newspaper, reported that the Yankees have offered Maddux a deal and that the pitcher is mulling it over, but has yet to agree."

The article also mentions that El Duque may be signed to a minor league contract (I'm suprised no one has taken a flyer on him yet)

[pepper]

Signs with Cubs:

http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/7096938

Lot of money for someone so far past their prime.

[Joseph]

It wouldn't shock me if Boras was just floating Yankee rumours out there to drive up Maddux's price.

IMO the Cubs overpaid for something they really didn't need.

[Crash Course]

No coincidence that Yank GM Brian Cashman was on the YES Network yesterday and on a press conference call the day before that saying (to the effect of) "I do not lie as a matter of principle. There is never any good that comes from lying. It is much easier to tell the truth. And, I am telling you that we have never spoken to Greg Maddux."

[SmedIndy]

Three years!!??!!??!!??!!??!!??

Que lastima!!!!

Dios mio!!!!

And all of the other Spanish I forgot!

[clemente21]

I really don't like this deal. For that kind of money over three years, I'd rather take my chances on Juan Cruz through Memorial Day and then go out and rent a guy from a lousy club like Al Leiter or Hideo Nomo.

[TimmyB]

Good chance the Cubs will come to regret this.

[jvonbokel]

I knew I could count on some objective analysis from Cubs fans here. I agree this sounds like Hendry went a little overboard. Their rotation was already one of the best in the game, whereas the offense is still questionable, despite having one of the best sluggers in the game.

[KCBOOMER]

The third year only kicks in if Maddux reaches certain performance levels.

Cubs definitely overpaid, but he should be better than Estes (well who wouldn't be?).

[WiredTiger]

The Cubs did overpay a little I think. Hopefully for Cubs fans Maddux bounces back a little. I would pitch him in between Wood and Prior and give people a different look.

[jvonbokel]

I think his '04 numbers will be closer to his career numbers than they will to his '03 numbers, but still, he's not worth it. I'd still like to know the exact details of the contract. If the 3rd year is an option, then the salary shouldn't be included in the overall value of the deal, which would mean:

'04 salary + '05 salary + option buyout = $24M.

That's way overpaid.

However, I've been hearing $6M in '04 and $9M in '05, so maybe the total is being reported with the 3rd year salary included because Boras expects Maddux to reach the 200IP that makes the 3rd year guaranteed.

[Skip]

because Boras expects Maddux to reach the 200IP that makes the 3rd year guaranteed.Is 200 the number? This is the first time I've actually seen a number given.

[clemente21]

I read someplace today (might have been the Sun-Times online edition) that the magic number is 400 IP in 04-05 combined.

[Crash Course]

Is it just me, or does Mad Dog look a little tubby? I saw him at the press conference on TV and thought he looked like he had a bit of a spare tire.

[Skip]

Is it just me, or does Mad Dog look a little tubby? I saw him at the press conference on TV and thought he looked like he had a bit of a spare tire.I thought that too ... though with his, uhh, less than imposing upper torso, it might just be an illusion.

[Crash Course]

He kinda looked like Gaylord Perry towards the end of his career. It will be interesting to see how he does this year.

[gyb13]

well, for those who haven't yet heard:

2-yr deal, $15 million ($6 in 2004 and $9 in 2005)
3rd yr option worth $9 million (cubs can void at zero cost if Maddux pitches under 400 innings in 04-05 combined)

[pathogan]

...the braves and the way that big park forgave him late in his career. outside of Pr, this makes no sense to me

[jvonbokel]

3rd yr option worth $9 million (cubs can void at zero cost if Maddux pitches under 400 innings in 04-05 combined)
That's a weird way of saying there's a team option year at $9M that vests if he pitches 400 innings in 04 and 05. Must be a Boras requirement so he could officially announce it as a 3-year contract.

[lonelybrewerfan]

With all due respect to Maddux. I think this is a bad contract. Maddux barely averaged 6 innings per start. (I think I calculated it at 6.07 per start). I don't think giving a guy 8 million for 6 innings a start is a good idea, even after adding Hawkins.

[gyb13]

the question now is whether Dusty will baby him or ride him till his arm falls off

[RichG]

With all due respect to Maddux. I think this is a bad contract. Maddux barely averaged 6 innings per start. (I think I calculated it at 6.07 per start). I don't think giving a guy 8 million for 6 innings a start is a good idea, even after adding Hawkins.

What about $8 million for 200 innings? That's worth it to me. 32 starts @6.3 innings will get you to 200 innings and I consider that almost workhorse-like.

[1908]

The contract's taking a lot of heat (as most Win Now! moves do), but I can't fault the Cubs for trying to win now. Sosa's on the downhill side, the Cubs have no obvious answer to replace him, and the division looks fairly open this year. This season, Maddux will probably be distinctly better than Juan Cruz (or at least, the Dusty Baker version of Juan Cruz). I'd also bet heavily against Maddux making the 400 IP level -- he'll be paying golf in Vegas 3 years from now, and most likely on his own dime.

The bigger issue is whether the Cubs should have spent this money on offense instead, and while most people say "yes!", I haven't seen a lot of obvious alternatives suggested, other than getting Pudge. As Joe Sheehan (who didn't like the signing) admitted on baseballprospectus.com, signing Maddux does not prevent the Cubs from doing something creative, like trading for Beltran, which could happen mid-season if, as seems likely, the Royals dissapoint.

[pathogan]

[QUOTE=gyb13]the question now is whether Dusty will baby him or ride him till his arm falls off[/QUOTE
...baby Him and ride Prior :rolleyes: