Recommendations Sought

[Skipper Steve]

Pretty soon, I'll be working on those on the current NetShrine Ballot. (http://www.netshrine.com/ballot.html) By working, I mean looking on who should get in.

As I do that, I always start to think about the next ballot. Here's who I'm thinking of, so far:

Harold Baines
Willard Brown
Jay Buhner
Mort Cooper
Bingo DeMoss
Tony Fernandez
Julio Franco
Tony Gwynn
Gregg Jefferies
Buddy Lewis
Jim Leyritz
Dick Lundy
Ollie Marcelle
Mark McGwire
Manny Mota
Hal Morris
Paul O'Neill
Cal Ripken Jr.
Bret Saberhagen
Sibby Sisti
Mike Stanley
Walt Weiss

Anyone else that you would recommend? Please check who's already in before making a suggestion. (http://www.netshrine.com/directory.html) Thanks in advance!

[timconnelly]

I'd like to suggest Jim Perry and Joe Niekro. Neither were as good as their brothers but both had long and productive careers with a few seasons of excellence.

[Skipper Steve]

I agree Tim - good recommendations - they will bump Jefferies and Morris off this ballot. Thanks.

Any others? Anyone?

[timconnelly]

I would like to nominate Tommy Henrich and Charlie Keller. These guys wer part of numerous championship teams and were involved in some of the most colorful plays in big league history.

Henrich, nicknamed "Old Reliable" was the batter when Mickey Owen dropped the famous 3rd strike in the 1941 World Series. Keller, nicknamed "King Kong" knocked Ernie Lombardi silly sliding home in the '39 Series allowing DiMaggio to come around and score the winning run.

Henrich hit 183 career home runs with a .659 OWP in a career that was cut 3 years short by WW2. Keller has an incredibly high OWP of .748 with 189 career home runs.

I know you've got a lot of Yankees but...

[Skipper Steve]

These are good - thanks Tim. I was just looking at Keller - - I'm working on updating the Gallery tonight. Maybe I will have them on the "next" ballot.

Keep 'em coming - all, please.

Can never have enough recommendations on these.

[Skipper Steve]

Mental note to self: Eric Davis and Harlond Clift

[Yogi#8Fan]

I'd like to nominate gentleman Jim Palmer.

[satchel]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
I'd like to nominate gentleman Jim Palmer.

He's not only already in the Gallery, but he's an Immortal.

http://www.netshrine.com/immortalsexp.html#James Alvin Palmer*

James Alvin Palmer
1965 - 1984 (Baltimore AL)
No one won more games or had
a lower ERA in the 1970's.

[Skipper Steve]

Thanks Satch. I think the full moon's been working on Yog.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Thanks Satch. I think the full moon's been working on Yog. Since when do I need a full moon? ;)

If Killebrew's described in the "All Time Twins" thread in History as being far less than an awesome fielder, why's he in the "Immortals" section?

[SmedIndy]

As stated before, Joe Judge, because of his longtime service to the AL and the Senators. He was the Mark Grace of his time, without the stories on the Jim Rome show about slumpbusters.;)

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Yogi#8Fan
If Killebrew's described in the "All Time Twins" thread in History as being far less than an awesome fielder, why's he in the "Immortals" section?

The big freakin' O.

When HK retired, this is what the all0time HR list looked like:

1 Hank Aaron 745
2 Babe Ruth 714
3 Willie Mays 660
4 Frank Robinson 583
5 Harmon Killebrew 573
6 Mickey Mantle 536
7 Jimmie Foxx 534
8 Ted Williams 521
T9 Ernie Banks 512
T9 Eddie Mathews 512

[Yogi#8Fan]

Smed, were you responding to myself about Joe Judge?

Skip, I see where you're coming from. Even w/2,597 whiffs, Reggie still made it into the HOF, so those power numbers are hard to ignore, including your own Immortals section.

I personally would've chosen Killer as my DH in the draft had I looked at that list earlier. Who would've complained?

[Throwback]

Joe Kuhel - With a name like Kuhel, it has to be good. Just kidding, really.

Check my suggestions that I sent you a few months ago, please, before deciding on a final list. I think there were some great ones in there.

Also, just wanted to make sure you were thinking of Mark McGwire along immortal lines. If Killebrew is one, so is Mac. And c'mon, who's ever going to forget him?

[Skipper Steve]

Mac is covered.

Here's your list from that note:

I would like to nominate Marty Marion for Underappreciated Postwar era, Wade Boggs for Immortals of Modern Era instead of Grinders, Boss Schmidt for Icons of Deadball Era, Deacon Phillippe for Grinders of Dead Ball Era, Charlie Sweeney for Icons of 19th Century, Ray Schalk for Dead Ball Era Grinders, Carl Mays for underappreciated (Dead or Lively Ball), Rex Hudler, Bob Tewksbury, and Jose Oquendo for Underappreciated or Grinders Modern, Mark Fidrych for Icons of Expansion (or Modern?), George Bradley for Grinders 19th Cent., and Wilbur Wood for Grinders or Significant Achievers for Expansion, and Terry Moore for Underappreciated Postwar (or Lively).

-----------
Most of these are already in - - sans Oquendo, of course.

[SmedIndy]

No, Yog, I was just making sure Skip remember to include Joe Judge as a grinder....that's all.

[Xanadu Dragon]

LGO's been making a slew of recommendations - - hope he doesn't mind, but, I want to document them here - makes it easier to look at one spot when it comes time to think about this stuff...............

1. Lindy McDaniel
Durable reliever. Only Hoyt Wilhelm had made more appearances when he
retired. Saved 172 games, won 141.

2. Bill Fischer
Holds major league record for throwing 84 1/3 consecutive innings without a
walk.

3. Jim Sundberg
Excellent defensive catcher with a rifle arm who won 6 consecutive Gold
Gloves, only Bench and I. Rodriguez have won more consecutively. Below
average as a hitter.

4. Tony Pena
One of baseball's best fielders behind the plate during the 80's, won 4 gold
gloves. Average hitter.

5. Ted "Double Duty" Radcliffe
Top-flight Negro League pitcher, was equally good at catching other
pitchers. Known for allegedly doctoring baseballs with emery boards.

6. Lance Parrish
Power-hitting catcher, hit 324 homers during his major league career. Won 3
gold gloves and made 7 all-star teams.

7. Bill Freehan
Made 11 all-star teams. Fine fielder behind the plate, won 5 gold gloves.
Average as a hitter.

8. Rick Reuschel
Portly right-hander. Workhorse pitcher with decent control who won 214
times during career.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more...........

1. Mark Fidrych
Tall, flaky right-hander who was a rookie sensation in 1976, winning 19.
Arm problems limited him to 10 thereafter.

2. Arlie Latham (finally I remembered him!)
Happy-go-lucky player who was a top leadoff hitter and run scorer. Was
oldest player to steal a base, doing so at age 50. Became one of the first
baseline coaches.

3. Vince Coleman
Blazing-fast LF who stole over 300 bases in his first 3 seasons, stole 752
overall, retiring 5th all-time. Average hitter. Career plagued by attitude
problems.

4. Ramon Martinez (I think he's retired officially)
Dominican who won 20 games in first full major league season. Ace pitcher
for several years before having arm problems, effectively ending his career
early.

5. Randy Myers (since I think he's not coming back)
Leader of vaunted "Nasty Boys" bullpen in Cincinnati. Hard thrower who
struck out 884 in 884 2/3 innings. Saved 347 games, 5th all-time.

6. Hugh Nicol
Tiny Scottish-born RF who recorded 138 steals in 1887 under baseball's
original rules for stolen bases. Not particularly great at the plate but an
excellent fielder for his era.

7. Dick Williams
Fiery-tempered manager. Managed three teams in the World Series, six
overall. Played 13 years.

And, just in case the AOL/TimeWarner merger put him out of a job...

8. Ted Turner
Billionaire media mogul who bought the Atlanta Braves and turned them into
"America's Team". Often known for his outrageous personality, once
inserting himself as manager.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more..............

1. Chili Davis
Jamaican-born slugger. Very consistent and durable. Evenly split career
between DH and OF.

2. Brian Downing
Late blooming hitter. Very good batting eye. Split career between C, LF,
and DH.

3. Jimmy Dykes
Better-then-average hitter at 3B. Great fielder at the position. Played 22
years, also managed 22 years.

4. Joe Kuhel
Highly reliable 1B. Agile fielder. Above-average at the plate. Fast for
the position.

5. Cy Williams
NL Slugging Star of the 1920's. Good performer in his later years, led
league in homers at age 39.

6. Gary Matthews
Take-charge player. Clutch performer, hustler, and a good hitter for 16
years. Somewhat poor in the OF.

7. Bill "Spaceman" Lee
Colorful, outspoken LHP. Won 126 games on his career. More known for his
personality.

8. Gene Mauch
Only Mack, McGraw, and Harris managed more games than Mauch. Never won a
pennant, managed three clubs that just barely fell short. Played 9 years.

9. Don Denkinger
Respected umpire for 31 years, among longest AL tenures. Unfortunately,
more known for blowing call in '85 W.S.

10. Ron Luciano
Highly theatrical umpire who was a rarity, a favorite among fans. Also
famous for his confrontations with Earl Weaver.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more...........

1. Ross Barnes
The best player during the National Asssociation's existence. Was first
National League batting champion. Struggled when foul rules were changed.

2. Davy Force
One of the smallest regulars in baseball history at 5'4", 130 lbs.
Outstanding fielder in baseball's early days, excelled at 3 tough positions.
Good hitter in the National Association, 2nd worst hitter in baseball
history after the NL's formation.

3. John Kruk
Slovenly 1B/OF. Played 10 years, during which only Boggs, Henderson, and
Bonds had a better on-base percentage. Famous for incident with Randy
Johnson in 1993 All-Star Game.

4. Tom Kelly
Managed Twins for 15 full seasons, when he retired, had sports' longest
managing/coaching tenure. Won 1140 games and 2 World Series, after teams
were in 6th and 7th place in division the previous year. Played 49 games in
the majors.

5. Bill James (peripheral)
Author who's generally considered responsible for popularity of
sabermetrics.

I'm gonna see if I can get them in:

6. Red Barber
First radio broadcaster in New York history, also announced first televised
game in baseball history. Broadcast Dodgers and Yankee games for 32 years.

7. Harry Caray
Wildly popular broadcaster. Broadcast games for over 50 years, announcing
games in Chicago for 27. Famous for off-key renditions of "Take Me Out To
The Ballgame" with fans.

8. Mel Allen
Eloquent Yankee broadcaster who announced games for over 25 years. Hosted
"This Week In Baseball" during 1980's. Known for "How About That!"
catchphrase.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more.............

1. Kirk Gibson
Hustling OF with a flair for World Series dramatic. Was an MVP despite
never being named to an all-star team.

2. Ben Chapman
Talented, strong-armed outfielder. Good hitter (.302) who led the league in
stolen bases 4 times.

3. Andy Pafko
Outfielder with great range and an exceptional throwing arm. Decent hitter
with solid power.

4. Bob Watson
1st Baseman with a good bat. Hit for the cycle in both leagues. Later
became the first black general manager. Scored baseball's 1,000,000th run.

5. Jim Devlin
Pitched virtually all of Louisville's NL games in the league's early years.
Allegedly fixed games in 1877, led to team's dismissal and his banishment.

6. Bob Tewksbury
Light throwing pitcher who won 110 games. Specialized in control, fewest
walks per 9 innings in history among modern starting pitchers.

7. Sid Fernandez
Hard throwing pitcher. Among the leaders in strikeouts per 9 in baseball
history. Not very durable, maligned as a "6-inning pitcher".

8. Wilbur Wood
Tubby knuckleballer. Workhorse who was used frequently out of the bullpen,
later became a frequently used starter. Won 164 games, saved 57.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more.............

1. Willie Randolph
Clubhouse leader with an excellent glove. Career .276 hitter, was excellent
at drawing walks.

2. Rico Petrocelli
First American League shortstop to hit 40 homers, set since-broken AL
fielding record for fewest errors at the position in the same season.
Career shortened by ear problems.

3. Bob Boone
Workhorse catcher who caught 2,225 games in his career. Won 7 gold gloves,
2 after the age of 40. Below average hitter.

4. Phil Cavaretta
Good hitting first baseman who played 22 years in Chicago. Was NL MVP in
1945.

5. George Scott
First baseman with a powerful stroke, hit 271 HR's. Known for his gold
teeth and his gold gloves, his 8 was an AL record for 15 years.

6. Fielder Jones
Aptly named, owned a great glove. Had a good bat as well, had a .290
average and 1,920 hits. Famous for managing the "Hitless Wonders", the '06
White Sox.

7. Dock Ellis
Colorful and controversial righthander who won 138 games during his career.
Known for 1970 no-hitter, thrown allegedly on LSD.

8. Bobo Newsom (achiever)
Changed teams more often than anyone in major league history. Strikeout
pitcher who won 211 games, lost 222.

[Xanadu Dragon]

more..............

1. Sal Maglie
Competitive big game pitcher. First full season at 33 due to ban from
playing in Mexico, won 119 games against 62 losses after he was reinstated.

2. Rip Sewell
First full season at 32, won 143 games and made 4 all-star teams. Often
threw floating "eephus" pitch.

3. Dave Stewart
Hard throwing pitcher who won 20 games in 4 straight years. Excellent big game pitcher, 10-6 in the postseason, only 2-4 in the World Series though.

4. Dave Stieb
Consistent right-hander. Won 176 games. Hard luck pitcher, had no-hitters
broken up after 8 2/3 in consecutive games once.

5. Hal McRae
One of baseball's first pure designated hitters. Hit .290 over a 19-year
career. Excellent doubles hitter.

6. Ron Fairly
Consistent, steady hitter who played over 1,000 games in the IF and OF.
Slow-footed. Only player who's represented both Canadian teams in the
all-star game.

7. Howard Johnson
Infielder with good speed and power, only the Bonds' have more 30/30 seasons
than his three. Played several positions, none of them well.

8. Eric Davis (hey I'm making good on my promise!)
Electric CF who had excellent speed and power. Promising career hampered
with various injuries and colon cancer during his career..

[Xanadu Dragon]

more...............

1. Dave McNally
Star pitcher who won 20 games in 4 consecutive seasons, 184 overall. Along
with Messersmith, was one of baseball's first free agents, only won 3 games
afterwards.

Now, some icons:
2. Bert Shepard
Wartime publicity stunt who lost his right leg in WWII, had it amputated.
Pitched 5 2/3 innings with only one real leg.

3. Jim Abbott
Star pitcher who was born without a right hand. Threw a no-hitter in 1993.

How about some achievers. Here's where the warning comes to play.

4. Gene Conley
Only player to win championships in two sports (baseball on basketball).
Better pitcher than forward, was an all-star.

5. Deion Sanders
Only player to appear in a World Series and a Super Bowl, also became first
to play baseball and football games on the same day. A flashy,
controversial personality who was extremely fast. Was a better football
player.

6. Rennie Stennett
Set major league record with 7 hits in 7 at bats during a 9-inning game.
Struggled with consistency in his career.

Now, a peripheral:
7. Davey Johnson
Won 1148 games in his managerial career, had a .564 winning percentage. Won
3 gold gloves at 2B as a player, also had a 40 HR season at the position.

And, assuming there isn't a waiting limit for this icon:

8. Jim Morris
Former draft pick who was a high school science teacher and baseball coach,
had a major league tryout at his teams insisting. Debuted at 36 and pitched
15 innings before retiring. Story documented in "The Oldest Rookie".

[Xanadu Dragon]

more.............

1. Jose Cruz
Speedy outfielder with decent range. Better than average hitter despite
playing in pitcher's park.

2. Gene Tenace
Power hitting catcher with over 200 homers. One of baseball's greatest
batting eyes, reached on walks and times hit by pitch more than he reached
on hits.

3. Joe Judge
Fluid 1B who was a better-than-average hitter. Very fast for his position,
stole 213 bases.

4. Brett Butler
Slap hitting outfielder who hit .290 and stole 558 bases. Was caught 257
times, though.

5. Ron LeFlore
Blazing fast outfielder with 455 SB and a good stick. Served time in prison
before making Major League debut, story told in the book "Breakout" and the
movie "One In A Million".

6. Elston Howard
Excellent fielding catcher who hit .274 for his career and won an MVP award.
Was first African-American to play for the Yankees.

7. Frank Howard (I can't believe you missed him)
Massive outfielder (6'7, 255") who hit 382 homers, many of the tape measure
variety. Hit 10 HR's in one week in 1968.

(Icon)
8. Lyman Bostock
Very good hitting outfielder who hit .311 for his career. Accidentally shot
and killed in 1978.

[Skip]

Ridiculous. Is this normal practice to work with a list of going on or over 100? Is this an annual practice? Appreciate all the work from LGO, but unless I am missing something (not at all impossible) this is drinking from a firehose. Note, I am making no judgement on the worthiness of any of the suggestions, just the volume.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Well, I think LGO's pointed out to me that the NetShrine Gallery is not as good as I thought it was - - there are plenty that should be in that I've missed so far.

Usually, I only update the Gallery about twice a year - - to add around 20 takes close to 8 hours of work. Finding 8 hours free time is a big deal for me - - even worse now that I've been playing in the forum for a couple of hours each day.

Eventually, I'll go through all the suggestions and try and get the Gallery to where it should be..............

[Golden Bear]

None of LGO's suggestions look unworthy on their face.

[Xanadu Dragon]

OK, thanks again to all for their help:

http://www.netshrine.com/archive.html#2/17/02

Whew! Now you know why I haven't been around here much lately.

[LeGrandOrange]

No problem for listing them all (most of them all, at least).
BTW, as I pointed out in one of the e-mails, Ben Chapman was already in. My mistake. I made them from time to time. Only him and the Bill James nomination were screw-ups, though. :) Not that Bill James is a bad pick, but he's still active.

[Xanadu Dragon]

:o I need better controls - can't believe I put Chapman on the ballot. He's off and Bert Shepard comes on.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Stan Hack had a .301 lifetime BA (.394 OBP), and hit .348 in 4 WS, while playing 3B for the Cubs.

Ron Santo is probably the #1 HOF injustice; let's put him on the ballot. He was the best 3B in the NL (I think he was better than Brooks Robinson, who was overrated!) during the 1960s.

[Xanadu Dragon]

Fuzz - Hack and Santo are in already. ;)

[Fuzzy Bear]

:o OOOPS!:o