GAME 7 - FINAL - Your Thoughts

[Skipper Steve]

It was close. Best team won. It was each team with their best in the end - and one came out on top. Congrats to the winners. Condolences to the losers.

From a Yankee fan standpoint, the series comes down to this for me - - - Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada, and David Justice - - - the expected meat of the Yankee order went 11 for 59 (.186) in the series with THREE RBI combined.

Steve Finley and Danny Batista went 14 for 31 (.452) combined in the series with 9 RBI between the two of them.

With the exception of the Yanks in games 1 and 6, every other game was well pitched. The difference in the series was the Yankees inability to reach base and score - - - in the big games, your big guys are supposed to come through - - and the Yankee "big" guys basically hit like pitchers.

[Duque]

What a game, even if it was a heartbreaker in the end.

The DBacks hit, and they played far better defense. If it had been, say, Earl Weaver or even Jimy Williams managing the DBacks, this Series would've been over a lot earlier. As a Yankee fan, though, the one bright spot is that this team will be significantly better next season, especially in the offensive department. If the Yankees hit at all, they win this Series.

[nightal]

Well said, Duque. This should not even have gone to game 7.

[Yogi#8Fan]

If Joe were less faithful, he brings in Doza before the score's tied. Was anyone even in the pen? It's like having a full army but no kevlar vest. You get hit, nothing stops the onslaught.

Great game, the Backs are an extremely pesky team and no one can possibly say they didn't play great ball. Lots of vets, especially RJ and they were great fundamentally.

Two typical Mo innings and it would be all ours, I'd be out celebrating right now. Time to ponder thoughts and think about next season. Strange feeling, like 1997.

[Skipper Steve]

Sad, even 'tho the team was not up to it this time, that the Yanks lost though (for me). Had then won, you could have made a very good fight for the 1996-2001 Yankees as the greatest team of all-time. However, now, they are one ring short - - and, not good enough to unseat the 1936-42 Yankees. Three outs away. That's pretty darn close.

I'm not sure the Yanks are better next year - even if they get some hitting. Clemens will be 40 at the end of next year. The bullpen still needs help in front of Mendoza, Stanton, and Rivera. Posada still needs to improve his catching (or get a bigger mitt). And, in all probability, the Yanks need two run producers and a table setter. Don't get me wrong, they should make the playoffs again next year - - have you seen the AL East? - - but, having what it takes to get the ring may not be there.

Arizona better enjoy this one. Their team is very old. The franchise has money problems. Doubtful they repeat. They really come across as the 1997 Marlins to me - - right down to the win in Game 7.

Will we hear it from anywhere that they "bought" a ring? If not, that's not fair - - Schilling, Johnson, Grace, Williams, Womack, Finley and Gonzo are not exactly home grown.

[Yogi#8Fan]

In addition to great defense, especially at 2B, our guys couldn't hit anything. Swinging at balls up by your ears or bouncing on the floor, even if hit hard, isn't fundamental to me. Too many guys didn't challenge the pitchers. Curt and Randy threw lots of balls which our guys fished for and came home hungry.

If any team showed they wanted to win, it's the Diamondbacks. They showed they had the will and the way to win and they kept coming back, whether it's Womack's speed or anyone else. They just wouldn't give up.

I still think this game was definitely winnable but you can't win every single WS and there's lots of homework to be done in the end and self-thought among the players and management to be done.

[Duque]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
I'm not sure the Yanks are better next year - even if they get some hitting. Clemens will be 40 at the end of next year. The bullpen still needs help in front of Mendoza, Stanton, and Rivera. Posada still needs to improve his catching (or get a bigger mitt). And, in all probability, the Yanks need two run producers and a table setter. Don't get me wrong, they should make the playoffs again next year - - have you seen the AL East? - - but, having what it takes to get the ring may not be there.


This may seem kind of out of the blue - but I wonder if the Yanks would trade Clemens? What better time to do it then following a season where he likely will win his 6th Cy Young award and won 20 games?

From the Yanks standpoint, you could look at it this way - Clemens is nearing 40, and he's been injured 3 times in the past 3 years. I still expect a couple more good years out of him, but you really can't expect him to anchor your staff anymore. Wouldn't it be great if he was sent to Texas or Houston, where he could win his 300th game in his home state, in exchange for the Yanks getting a couple of those team's good young hitters and pitchers?

[Skipper Steve]

Only way Clemens gets traded is if he requests it. Big Stein wants that NY on his cap in the HOF. Even at 39-41, Clemens should be good for 15 wins in both 2002 and 2003. That will put him over 300 for his career. My point about him being 40 was meant to say you can't count on him to be 17 games over 500 next year.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Duque
This may seem kind of out of the blue - but I wonder if the Yanks would trade Clemens? What better time to do it then following a season where he likely will win his 6th Cy Young award and won 20 games?

From the Yanks standpoint, you could look at it this way - Clemens is nearing 40, and he's been injured 3 times in the past 3 years. I still expect a couple more good years out of him, but you really can't expect him to anchor your staff anymore. Wouldn't it be great if he was sent to Texas or Houston, where he could win his 300th game in his home state, in exchange for the Yanks getting a couple of those team's good young hitters and pitchers? I think that Clemens has 1 more year of dominance in him, 2 is stretching it. It's not like 1999 when they'd gotten him. He wasn't so hot that year but much better in 2000. He's been accused of avoiding Seattle and Oakland in September (was Oakland series in August?). I get the feeling his productivity has diminished somewhat but he was at least big enough to step up and be very quality today, even if he wasn't "on" from beginning to end.

Instead of a trade, which may be suspect, considering you're talking about one of the biggest name pitchers still active, they should look to the future and get 2 more quality SP. As such, Orlando may consider the pen since his 6+ inning days are apparently behind him. A 5 man rotation would save Roger and Andy doesn't do well on little rest.

I wouldn't say we need unstoppable pithcers like Curt and Randy but someone competent like David Cone may just get a win and that's all needed. Overpowering starters may come at a similar pricetag.

Wohlers & Witasick must go. If Orlando and Hitchcock are occasional starters and relievers, matching what Seattle has (5 quality relievers), I see that being a much better situation.

Excuse my blabberng since I'm just thinking about how they may improve their season for next year.

[Skipper Steve]

:topic: Let's try and stick to Game 7 here and not turn this into a 2002 Yankees thread.

Back to the WS - - I just tallied this up - - - - not only did Johnson and Schilling win all 4 games for Arizona - - but, they pitched 60% (!) of all the innings racked up by their staff. :shockbig:

Diamondback pitchers registered 195 outs in the seven games - - - 116 were by either Johnson or Schilling.

It will be interesting to see if their arms fall off next year.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Sorry about that, Steve, I just had too many things on my mind and they all went straight for the keyboard. Happens.

[Duque]

As a baseball fan, I am happy that Randy Johnson, Mark Grace, et al. finally got a ring. They certainly deserved it.

I am not happy that Bob Brenly will get one.

[b-ball-lunachik]

We didn't hit well as a team all series long.
We didn't play crisp defense as a team all series long.
We had some great pitching performances and some pretty bad ones, but it wasn't consistent all series long.

Yet there we were in Game 7, bottom of the 9th inning with a lead, with arguably the best closer ever on the mound. Unfortunately, we were one trick short of another miracle. Law of averages caught up with us and we lost.

In the meantime, I just can't point fingers at certain players -- we win as a team and we lose as a team. There were many things each guy could have done differently to alter that final game, and they didn't.

I will tip my hat to the Diamondbacks and think back on the great memories the Yanks gave me this year and in recent years. I will look forward to the next several months as moves are made to put the best team we can on the field to go after it all again next year.

I love this team -- all 25 members and its coaching staff. I'm sad tonight, but thankful that they gave us a run when I don't think we had the most talented team in the American League, much less the Major Leagues. I'm thankful I had a team to root for in this World Series when 28 other teams and their fans did not.

[b-ball-lunachik]

Originally posted by Duque
As a baseball fan, I am happy that Randy Johnson, Mark Grace, et al. finally got a ring. They certainly deserved it.

I am not happy that Bob Brenly will get one.

Ditto -- they are a pretty likeable team as a whole...except for Brenly...and if we had to get beat, the fact that it was Grace and Gonzo starting it and ending the ninth was some consolation...two of the classiest ballplayers in the game...

[Dave B.]

Reporting from Phoenix:

Great game, great series. A few quick thoughts:

--I'm not sure if this was evident elsewhere, but in the minds of many fans in Phoenix, this series was a chance to erase the demons of 32 years of Suns playoff frustration. The teams are very closely associated with each other, mostly because of Jerry Colangelo.

--In the 9th, following Tony Womack's run-scoring double, I was sure that Craig Counsell was going to suicide squeeze for the win, even after the first strike. Anybody else thinking that?

--I'm convinced that the Diamondbacks won in spite of Bob Brenly. IMHO, he made bizarre decisions all season long with his day-to-day lineups and the handling of his pitchers. The magnitude and frequency of his (again, IMHO) bad decisions only increased as the playoffs wore on. The Schilling-on-short-rest thing was the worst offense, but there were plenty of other cases where he missed opportunities to arrange more advantageous matchups. Letting Schilling hit in the 7th tonight was, I thought, the final nail in that coffin. So, the team gets a near-miracle win and he comes out smelling like a rose. I don't suppose there's any hope he'll be fired anyway. :etongue:

--Question: where does everybody rank this series all-time or vs. other recent series? (It's kind of hard for me to have any perspective on this at this point ;)).

Dave B.

[Duque]

Hey, I just thought of something! The Curse of the Balboni is no more!

[Yogi#8Fan]

Interesting point is that unlike Oakland, which didn't quite have an answer when confronted with great plays, or Seattle, which seemed to misuse their deeper pen, the Diamondbacks didn't ever quit one bit. Looking at the expression on Gonzo's face, he was very confidence and didn't give in or give up.

Throughout the entire game, they'd felt they could win this game and wouldn't quit, back down no matter what. That seemed very different from what the Yankees had faced this postseason. Now had our offense been much better, this could've been a much better situation, but another thought on things that could've been. Coulda, woulda, shoulda but wasn't. Happens.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Dave B.
--Question: where does everybody rank this series all-time or vs. other recent series? (It's kind of hard for me to have any perspective on this at this point ;)).

Dave B. Jim McMahon of the WWF couldn't have scripted anything quite this good. I can't stand the end result but I'd rate it as very exciting.

The Yankees were kept alive by very stingy SP's but the Backs were simply running all over the place, hitting, great pitching from Randy and Curt. I haven't watched enough WS games to fully respond but it seemed right up there with one of the better ones, much more competitive and "back to the wall, do or die" than in prior years, no offense to fans of those teams or the teams themselves.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Dave B.
Question: where does everybody rank this series all-time or vs. other recent series? (It's kind of hard for me to have any perspective on this at this point.)

Somewhere around the 1991 and 1997 WS. Meaning the hardcore baseball fan will always remember it - - but, to the general public, it will just be a faint memory in about 5 years.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Duque
Hey, I just thought of something! The Curse of the Balboni is no more!

Yeah - and so much for the Ex-Cubs thing too. :(

Amazing stat to me - - the Diamondbacks scored more run in one game (Game 6) than the Yankees scored in the ENTIRE series - - yet, it came down to the 9th inning of Game 7. Go figure.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Was that Armando Benitez in relief last night for the Yanks?

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
Was that Armando Benitez in relief last night for the Yanks?

No. Armando was home last night, beating up his ex-stripper common law wife. ;)

[95mph]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve


No. Armando was home last night, beating up his ex-stripper common law wife. ;) OUCH! :jester:

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by 95mph
OUCH! :jester: That's the best part. It doesn't sting a bit. I absolutely relish the way the Yanks lost. It could not have been scripted any better. The infallible Mariano Rivera blowing the biggest save of his career. That was a Mets fan wet dream.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
The infallible Mariano Rivera blowing the biggest save of his career. That was a Mets fan wet dream.

Buzz - You may not feel anything; but, I feel sad for you. I wish you could derive joy from witnessing and sharing the success of your own favorite team rather than requiring the misfortune of a team which you do not root for (in order to be happy) - - - - do you really want to be known as a person whose rapture is contingent to the suffering of others?

[Duque]

Wasn't like he was exactly hammered, either. An ill-advised throwing error, a questionable HBP, a soft blooper. It happens - the law of averages says he can't be absolutely perfect every time out.

Though, if Benitez had been in the same situation, it could well have been a grand slam he gave up.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Buzz - You may not feel anything; but, I feel sad for you. Make no mistake. I would be much more gleeful had it been the Mets winning the World Championship, but it wasn't. Therefore, I take the next best thing, which for me is the Yankees losing.

BTW - no need to feel bad for me.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Duque
Wasn't like he was exactly hammered, either. Though, if Benitez had been in the same situation, it could well have been a grand slam he gave up. At the end of the day, that doesn't much matter, does it? Getting nickel and dimed to death or dying by the sword insignificant. Dead is dead.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
At the end of the day, that doesn't much matter, does it? Getting nickel and dimed to death or dying by the sword insignificant. Dead is dead.

We do agree here Buzz - - a loss is a loss. I've already started to hear some crap about "broken bat basehits" and "hit it where they weren't" with respect to Mariano's 9th. Bottom line, he lost. Whether it was a 500 ft. HR or a roller through the 1B-man's legs - - doesn't matter. It's still a loss.

If he had gotten three outs on liners ripped right at infielders, he would have taken the save. It has to work both ways.

[Jen]

It was a hard game to watch, but it was one I'll always remember. I'm not going to say the Diamondbacks played better, because I'm a biased Yankee fan, so I'll say: The Yankees played worse. I could almost smell that win in our glove, and dammit, if it doesn't come down to the final moments...AGAIN.
The wins in New York, I can't help but think that there's the voice of the Babe saying "I've helped you all I can here, but out there in Arizona, you're on your own."

I'm still a little disgusted.

[Duque]

Originally posted by BuzzBuzzard
At the end of the day, that doesn't much matter, does it? Getting nickel and dimed to death or dying by the sword insignificant. Dead is dead.

This is true. But, I would be more concerned about his future had he had a Mitch Williams-esque moment.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by Duque
This is true. But, I would be more concerned about his future had he had a Mitch Williams-esque moment. Agreed.

[ChrisCary]

Best looknig swings all game:

Roger Clemens.

[BuzzBuzzard]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Best looknig swings all game:

Roger Clemens. I only saw Roger's first AB. Priceless. Those were some healthy cuts he was taking. Damn near was on his ass in the other batter's box.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by Duque
This is true. But, I would be more concerned about his future had he had a Mitch Williams-esque moment.

He had one - in 1997 - See: Sandy Alomar. He survived.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Best looknig swings all game: Roger Clemens.

Without question, Rocket was thinking "Swing hard in case you hit it."

I saw his house on 60 Minutes - he has a mound, cage, etc. on the property. He must take some swings for fun - - I would. Batting v. Schilling is probably a little different than your wife and kids 'tho.

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by Dave B.
--In the 9th, following Tony Womack's run-scoring double, I was sure that Craig Counsell was going to suicide squeeze for the win, even after the first strike. Anybody else thinking that?

Actually, my wife made that call. If it weren't for the HBP, I was almost *sure* we would have seen it. *That* would have been a way to end a WS Game 7!

[jpalexa]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Somewhere around the 1991 and 1997 WS. Meaning the hardcore baseball fan will always remember it - - but, to the general public, it will just be a faint memory in about 5 years.

You think? I found this year's Series *much* more memorable. (Except for '91 -- the Braves/Twins worst-to-first thing -- sorry, I'm in Atlanta!)

If this year's Series doesn't stick in the mind of the common (wo)man, I can't imagine what would...the Earthquake Series in 1989?

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by ChrisCary
Best looknig swings all game:

Roger Clemens. Still surprised nobody taught him how to hit. At least Andy and Moose looked half decent. Since Roger won't be increasing the Yanks' offense any, he should've just laid the lumber on the shoulder and kept himself quiet. Can't get a DP like that or hurt yourself, so not bad advice if you think about it.

I remembered there was a commercial awhile ago (probably for SI) showing Randy taking swings with his awesome .050 BA. Looked like someone's kid sister playing whiffleball. When I saw him jog home twice against Witasick, I wish I'd seen that commercial played again that night but live.

[Skipper Steve]

Originally posted by jpalexa
You think? I found this year's Series *much* more memorable. (Except for '91 -- the Braves/Twins worst-to-first thing -- sorry, I'm in Atlanta!)

If this year's Series doesn't stick in the mind of the common (wo)man, I can't imagine what would...the Earthquake Series in 1989?

I think the common folk best remember the 1975, 1986 and 1988 Series the most - - - since those are the replays you see a million times (Fisk, Buckner and Gibson). Doubtful that there was one play that will be replayed over and over from this series.

[Yogi#8Fan]

Originally posted by Skipper Steve
Only way Clemens gets traded is if he requests it. Big Stein wants that NY on his cap in the HOF. Even at 39-41, Clemens should be good for 15 wins in both 2002 and 2003. That will put him over 300 for his career. My point about him being 40 was meant to say you can't count on him to be 17 games over 500 next year. Roger is 280-145 (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=3340) but unsure if PS stats are included. Neither of my draft picks, Whitey Ford (236-106) (http://www.baseballreference.com/f/fordwh01.shtml) nor Bob Gibson (251-174) (http://www.baseballreference.com/g/gibsobo01.shtml), the latter whom Joe had complimented Roger by comparison, have 300. That's why Clemens is one of the rare ones, since with 4- and 5-man rotations, how many players can actually get 15 wins per season for 20 season for 300? It's like a magic number which is almost unattainable and sometimes unfathomable, like 500 dingers.