Is The Plan Working?

[OaktownTribeFan]

Everybody who follows the Indians knows about GM Shapiro's Plan--develop the farm system, bring up rookies, educate them at the major league level, maybe add a FA or two, and make a run for the playoffs in 2005. But as I watch the '03 version of the team, I wonder how using retread pitchers like Brian Anderson, Jason Bere, and Jose Santiago fits in with The Plan? Why is this team hitting like classic Punch & Judy? Is the plan to make them so bad that fans will find them lovable, like the '62 Mets? That's probably a cheap shot, but I get down when I see them roll over and play dead for an Angels team that isn't nearly as good as they were last year. The Indians' offense is absolutely pathetic, and their pitching is rapidly going south.

Hal Lebovitz, who has covered the Indians for over 50 years, says that Eric Wedge has been having daily meetings with his players. That seems like it's micro-managing to me; most teams and companies that have too many meetings get nothing done. Are they really this bad, or are they wrapped too tight, worried that Wedge is going to come down hard on them for any mistake?

[WiredTiger]

I think it's way too early to jump on the Indians. I think they get a free pass for this year and next year. 2005 is when you should reasonably expect to win some games. The veteran pitchers are just stop gaps until they can find some young guys who are ready.

[SmedIndy]

Are the daily meetings instructional in nature?

[rcartman28]

I agree with WiredTiger. A young team like the Indians are going to go through some rough stretches where they look absolutely brutal, having seen the Twins go through this in the late 90s.

[sweaver]

Oaktown, it's rough to go from the Indians' great success of the 1990's to the current struggles, but it's all part of the process. Part of the problem was not starting the rebuilding earlier, so that it was more like reloading. But what's done is done, and the current situation will lead to success in the future.

Why the mediocre veteran pitchers now? To help protect the tender young arms, a sensible precaution the Royals are not using and will likely pay for down the line.

[gyb13]

OTF - it's been a month. patience, my friend

[OaktownTribeFan]

Are the daily meetings instructional in nature?

We don't know that, SmedIndy, and nobody's talking. From what I've seen of Wedge, he strikes me as being over-the-top and like a drill sergeant. Since I was in the Army a long time ago, I can spot the type a mile away. I'm curious how that's wearing on a team which is already struggling just to scratch across a couple runs a game.

Why the mediocre veteran pitchers now? To help protect the tender young arms, a sensible precaution the Royals are not using and will likely pay for down the line.

sweaver, it would be OK I suppose if any of the vets had some talent left. But the talent's not there in terms of Brian Anderson & Bere & Santiago. It smacks too much of 2000, when retreads were heavily used, and it was a total failure.

Prospects such as Brian Tallet have already had major league experience under their belts, and enough experience in the minors. Tallet has shown all he can show down there, so he's just wasting time at Buffalo IMO. There's some typical front-office conservatism happening which really isn't justified, in terms of the overall talent of pitchers like Tallet. Eventually they'll realize that Anderson & Bere are stiffs, and they'll call up the prospects. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Here's a capsule of Tallet's minor league stats including 2003:

W L ERA
32 19 3.05

That's 51 decisions. Plenty of time to evaluate him. You could say he's already shown his "Tallet for the Game." ;)

He also spent 3 weeks with Cleveland last September, and was very formidable. I can't see the wisdom behind holding him back any longer.

[sweaver]

If they are using veteran pitchers to soak up innings and save the kids' arms, that's good.

If the vets are taking up roster space and starts that should be used for talented young guys, that's bad.

[Doc Pontoon]

I think it's completely, absolutely defensible to use the lousy MLB vet pitchers in the manner that the Indians have. The purpose of having these pitchers is to block the injuns' minor league pitchers and keep their service clock from starting. The only thing the kids would be learning this year is that it sucks to pitch in the majors and have no run support because the hitters are also getting OJT. Admittedly, they would enjoy always having their luggage carried by others, but that is not the concern of the Cleveland organization. And, as for Tallet, if he stays down all year... well, that's one more year that he is chattel to the Indians when they actually would have a use for a quality pitcher.

[Ytown Tribe fan]

Originally posted by Doc Pontoon
I think it's completely, absolutely defensible to use the lousy MLB vet pitchers in the manner that the Indians have. The purpose of having these pitchers is to block the injuns' minor league pitchers and keep their service clock from starting. The only thing the kids would be learning this year is that it sucks to pitch in the majors and have no run support because the hitters are also getting OJT

I'll defend it. In fact, it's the one thing that makes sense. You have young talent -- loads of it. Some of the guys ARE playing at the big league level. OJT if you will. They are collecting an option this year because they aren't going back down more than three years no matter what -- the Tribe isn't going to be "out of options" on these guys.

It's the other talent that the Tribe ISN'T sure of (and that they don't want to waste options on) that is being replaced by Terry Mulholland et al. These guys can play all year in Buffalo and show the Tribe that they are worth a long-term investment.

Any large corporation with a multi-level ladder would do the same thing with new talent if they didn't want to run out of options before some of that talent was ready to contribute at the top level.

[OaktownTribeFan]

I'll defend it. In fact, it's the one thing that makes sense. You have young talent -- loads of it. Some of the guys ARE playing at the big league level. OJT if you will. They are collecting an option this year because they aren't going back down more than three years no matter what -- the Tribe isn't going to be "out of options" on these guys.

I agree, Ytown, some of the guys are getting OJT. But it's not clear what the factors are that lead to promotion. Perhaps it's just performance in spring training, which got Davis the job. Since then, he's done very little to warrant staying with the Indians.

OTOH, Pluto and the front office are holding a few bad starts by Tallet against him, and throwing his 3+ years of good pitching out the window. Their attitude can be summed up with the old adage, 'what have you done for me lately?' It's shortsighted and there's not much acumen or verve to their approach.

IMO, they're going to be forced to call up Stanford, Guthrie (after he's seasoned at Buffalo for a few starts), and others, unless they want to fall into the abyss with Detroit. Don't get me wrong--I never expected them to contend this year, but winning 60 games wouldn't sit well with most Indians fans, and they'll be lucky to draw 10K to games after June. Dolan can't afford that kind of dropoff, and if that happens, he'll invest even less in the team. If the rookie pitchers are called up, at least there's SOME interest in the pitching. With Bere and other retreads pitching, the interest level will be close to zero.

[ronh]

I think that Shapiro is trying to catch lightning in a bottle. He signs veterans to small one-year contracts and hopes they have a good first 3 months. Then , he can trade them for prospects and open up a roster spot for whoever is ready in the minors.

Unfortunately, Spencer, Bere and Anderson haven't done much so far. But, it was worth a try.

[KCBOOMER]

If the Tribe's farm system is as loaded as the pundits say then Shapiro's plan is a good one. Let the easy to unload vets take the the beating while the kids mature in the minors.

[tmdmetsfan]

I know i hopped on this a bit late, but i think it is a great way to play this season out...let the veteran arms soak up the innings at the major league level while giving the young arms either more seasoning at the minor league level or in relief situations on the big league club. Pitchers take longer to adjust and develop than hitters do to the major leagues...and with all that has been discussed about pitcher abuse, it is always better to use less now than chance blowing out a young arm. That being said...i think KC is keeping a firm eye on their young pitchers and will be rewarded by having some stud pitchers over the next couple of years.

Let's see what the Indians do the rest of this year...remember, they are rebuilding...not reloading...they know they are not going to be competitive for another couple of years so why put their young impressionable pitchers out to the slaughter where they can lose their confidence in a losing situation.

[pathogan]

...all I can say for the Tribe is that ,at the very least THEY HAVE A PLAN.sigh...