Amazing Barry Zito [Merged threads]

[OaktownTribeFan]

I've watched him twice this year and a few times in 2002, and he's just amazing. His curve breaks harder and in more of a 12/6 fashion than anyone I can recall since Gary Peters back in the 60s.

I can't think of any other current lefties with such a wicked hook. Can you?

Baseball-reference.com compares him to Clemens and Mel Stottlemyre. I think that's mostly from the standpoint of raw W-L performance.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/z/zitoba01.shtml

[gyb13]

PECOTA compares him to guys like Jim Kaat 1963, Jerry Reuss 1974, Ken Holtzman 1970, Jon Matlack 1975, and Bob Knepper 1979.

[OaktownTribeFan]

Kaat also had that big curveball, IIRC.

Zito's just oozing with potential. I don't know which way he's going to go. Is he going to be the next Kaat, or more like Jamie Moyer? I've read that Zito's really disciplined, has a special pre-game workout routine, and even meditates. He's also a gifted guitar player.

A's fans may be interested in his interview with ESPN's Todd Wright.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/thezitofiles.html

[Wolf Hopper]

Bruce Hurst and Sid Fernandez had good lefty hooks.

In Kaat's book, he said the trick to the curve - - throwing it and living a long life on the mound, is using your wrist to apply the break and not your elbow.

Can we even tell how Zito does it?

If it is the elbow, we may not see him pitching in 2013.

[WiredTiger]

In my mind Zito is the best of the big three in Oakland. He throws very hard and that hook is almost unhittable. As long as he stays healthy he should be in contention for the Cy Young for the next 5-10 years.

[gyb13]

Originally posted by OaktownTribeFan
Is he going to be the next Kaat, or more like Jamie Moyer? i don't think the comparison to Moyer is appropriate. Zito, at age 24, has already had a better season than any of Moyer's...plus, Moyer only found himself as a pitcher at age 30...

[poorme]

i guess he reminds me of mark langston. though better.

[KCBOOMER]

Originally posted by OaktownTribeFan I can't think of any other current lefties with such a wicked hook. Can you?

Though clearly not anywhere near as proven a pitcher as Zito, Jeremy Affeldt of the Royals has big 12-6 curveball. Put to be picking I thing Zito's is more of a 11-5 breaking ball. I don't see him coming directly over the top.

[Rajah]

Of all the players on the A's current roster, I think Zito is one of 2, maybe 3 that are irreplacable, and should be given oodles of money to stay in Oaktown (the other is, of course, Eric Chavez...with a maybe going out to Billys great white elephant, Ruby, depending on how he performs as the full time DH...I see numbers close to Giambi-esque myself).

Mulder should be let go of, with Rich Harden almost ready to go, and Ted Lilly already goin strong. Then they have a good lefty not too far behind Harden (sorry, I forgot his name) who could make Hudson expendable, which is hard for me to say since Tim is my favorite current A.

[qtlaw]

I heard an amazing stat on Zito recently, although he's only 23 or 24 and been in the MLB only a couple of years, he's pitched in 585 inn and only given up 464 hits!!! In this day and age of hitters, pitching 121 innings more than hits surrendered is phenomenal. That looks like dominance and could be the start of something big.

[Craig S.]

He's finished 4th in that category for each of the past 2 years, and in the top in WHIP both times. He's also led the league in starts, which concerns me only in that I'd hate to see him injure himself.

He's a pleasure to watch, and I hope he keeps it up. Great pitcher, great character. Not enough of those in the game.

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally posted by qtlaw
I heard an amazing stat on Zito recently, although he's only 23 or 24 and been in the MLB only a couple of years, he's pitched in 585 inn and only given up 464 hits!!!

Actually, I think he turns 25 this year.
Let's hope he has a better career than Herb Score and Jeff Tesreau - neither were still in the bigs by the time they reached age 30.
Cooperstown should not start that plaque for Zito yet, IMHO.


AGE < 25
INNINGS PITCHED BETWEEN 500 AND 600
HITS <= 430

RSAA RSAA IP H
1 Barry Zito 88 536.1 430
2 Herb Score 80 512 338
3 Jeff Tesreau 74 525 399
4 Andy Messersmith 41 525.2 357
5 Bob Turley 26 561 396
6 Nolan Ryan -6 510 369

[OaktownTribeFan]

Let's hope he has a better career than Herb Score and Jeff Tesreau - neither were still in the bigs by the time they reached age 30.

Zito will likely last for a long time, because Rick Peterson takes care of his pitchers. He doesn't allow them to throw more than 120 pitches in most starts. He's really like an uncle to them, taking care of their every need, giving instruction as needed, and not putting too much stress on their arms. Pitchers are treated like kings in Oakland.

[sweaver]

It's the same with any pitcher. Gotta take care of that wing. It's why the Baseball Prospectus motto is "there is no such thing as a pitching prospect."

[satchel]

I can't say enough good things about Zito. Any way you slice his numbers, he's awesome. And he is a joy to watch. If you've never seen him, even on TV, do what you must to get to watch him. (I'm sure he'll pitch an ESPN game again this season.) He has an easy fluid delivery, a spectacular nearly 12-6 curve, and an explosive fastball. Very, very fun to watch.

Here's hoping he enjoys Clemens-like longevity. If he does, he'll finish as one of the all-time greats.

[KCBOOMER]

Kerry Wood's numbers are even better but the arbitrary 500 innings before age 25 leaves him out. Due to missing a season with an arm injury he only had 477 innings by age 25.

Wood H/9 number is 6.83 versus Zito's 7.22. Needless to say both marks are outstanding.

[KCBOOMER]

Get rid of the 600 inning ceiling and you will see Zito in much better company.

[Wolf Hopper]

Originally posted by KCBOOMER
Get rid of the 600 inning ceiling and you will see Zito in much better company.

But, I wanted to capture those who were most like Zito - - not those who have done better than him.

[Wolf Hopper]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?

[pathogan]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?


...so the yankees smoked him .once...give it a rest with clemens,please?

[SmedIndy]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?

We ask this time and again after the ASB every year. Jack Armstrong, anyone?

[pathogan]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?

RSAA of 19 as opposed to Cl's 7. That's how...

[Wolf Hopper]

Pat - I never mentioned Clemens. This is solely a discussion on Zito's issues this year. I have to ask you the question you always ask me - why is everything always about the Yankees?

[pathogan]

Pat - I never mentioned Clemens. This is solely a discussion on Zito's issues this year. I have to ask you the question you always ask me - why is everything always about the Yankees?


...he replaced Zito on the team,that is why? and I don't know why everything is about the yankees[or HAS been],BTW. Methinks because the wheel that makes the most noise,etc...

[Wolf Hopper]

I'm questioning why he was on the team in the 1st place - given his low win total and alarming walk rate.

[sweaver]

Zito did win the Cy Young last year. That's a pretty good credential. Plus, his slump is recent, and his numbers were better at the ASB.

[SmedIndy]

I'm questioning why he was on the team in the 1st place - given his low win total and alarming walk rate.

Wins, feh...I could care not about wins. It's about effectiveness.

[Wolf Hopper]

It's about effectiveness.

You cannot walk as many as he has this year and be effective.

[SmedIndy]

You cannot walk as many as he has this year and be effective.

If you don't allow runs to score you can be, short term. The ASG is a short-term award.

[pathogan]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?


Top 30 ML Starters (ranked by SNWs over a .425 pitcher):

Pitcher Team SNW SNL SNPct W L RA APW SNVA SNWAR
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Loaiza,E CHW 12.3 3.5 .780 13 5 2.39 4.2 4.2 5.6
Hudson,T OAK 12.5 5.6 .693 9 4 3.09 3.3 3.4 4.8
Mulder,M OAK 12.0 5.2 .696 14 7 3.03 3.3 3.2 4.7
Martinez,P BOS 10.2 3.3 .758 7 2 2.79 2.7 3.1 4.5
Webb,B ARI 9.1 2.6 .779 7 4 2.58 3.0 3.1 4.1
Zito,B OAK 11.2 5.7 .663 8 8 3.36 2.6 2.5 4.0
Brown,K LAD 10.1 4.5 .692 10 5 2.42 2.8 2.6 3.9
Schmidt,J SFG 10.1 4.7 .681 11 4 2.50 2.8 2.6 3.8
Halladay,R TOR 11.3 6.8 .626 15 2 3.86 2.2 2.0 3.6
Nomo,H LAD 10.7 6.2 .631 12 8 2.87 2.5 2.1 3.5
Pineiro,J SEA 10.0 5.8 .634 13 5 3.03 2.7 2.0 3.3
Batista,M ARI 8.4 4.1 .674 7 4 3.08 2.5 2.0 3.1
Willis,D FLA 7.7 3.4 .697 10 2 2.59 2.0 2.1 3.0
Mussina,M NYY 9.3 5.5 .627 11 6 3.57 2.0 1.8 3.0
Wood,K CHC 9.9 6.4 .607 10 8 3.55 1.5 1.7 2.9
Clemens,R NYY 9.8 6.3 .608 10 7 4.01 1.4 1.6 2.9
Chacon,S COL 9.2 5.6 .623 11 5 4.15 1.7 1.7 2.9
Schilling,C ARI 7.2 3.0 .702 5 6 3.18 2.0 2.1 2.8
May,D KCR 8.5 5.0 .627 5 5 4.02 2.0 1.7 2.7
Colon,B CHW 9.6 6.8 .586 8 9 4.09 1.6 1.3 2.6
Williams,W STL 9.6 6.8 .585 14 4 3.70 1.5 1.3 2.6
Redman,M FLA 8.3 5.1 .619 9 4 3.19 1.7 1.6 2.6
Sabathia,C CLE 8.7 5.7 .605 9 6 4.03 1.5 1.4 2.6
Ortiz,R ATL 9.2 6.4 .589 15 4 3.83 1.6 1.5 2.6
Ponson,S BAL 9.2 6.5 .588 14 6 3.95 1.3 1.2 2.6
Wolf,R PHI 9.0 6.1 .594 11 5 3.49 1.4 1.4 2.5
Moyer,J SEA 8.9 6.2 .591 14 5 3.70 1.4 1.3 2.5
Suppan,J PIT 8.4 5.6 .599 9 7 3.67 1.8 1.3 2.4
Lima,J KCR 4.6 0.7 .868 7 0 2.17 1.7 1.9 2.4
Wells,D NYY 8.8 6.3 .582 11 3 3.89 1.6 1.2 2.4

[pathogan]

Zito is now 8 and 9 on the season and his walks rate is 2nd worst in the league.

How did he make the All-Stars this year?


...Unluckiest 10 ML Starters (ranked by (W - E(W)) + (E(L) - L)):

Pitcher Team E(W) E(L) W L Diff.
------------------------------------------------
Maroth,M DET 6.4 8.6 5 15 -7.8
Bernero,A DET 4.1 7.7 1 12 -7.4
Bonderman,J DET 5.2 8.5 4 14 -6.8
Zito,B OAK 11.2 5.7 8 8 -5.5
Rusch,G MIL 3.9 9.6 1 12 -5.3
Haynes,J CIN 4.0 7.8 2 11 -5.3
Schilling,C ARI 7.2 3.0 5 6 -5.1
D'Amico,J PIT 7.3 6.3 6 10 -5.0
Stephenson,G STL 7.1 7.5 5 10 -4.6
Snyder,K KCR 4.7 4.2 1 5 -4.5



God , all these stats, I feel like I've joined a cult...

:D

[Skip]

God , all these stats, I feel like I've joined a cult...
:DYeah, whenever you visit Beanetown make sure you pass on the koolaid!

[Wolf Hopper]

Were Hudson and/or Mulder on the All-Stars?

[sweaver]

...Unluckiest 10 ML Starters (ranked by (W - E(W)) + (E(L) - L)):
:D
I'd say anyone who starts for Detroit this year is by definition unlucky......

[pathogan]

[QUOTE=sweaver]I'd say anyone who starts for Detroit this year is by definition unlucky......[/QUOTE

Zito has more losses career wise agasint the tigers than any other team,which is, well, weird...

[tfb_00]

This all started off with the curve question (just read the thread today) I haven't seen alot of Randy Wolf but caught his AS game appearance and was blown away by his curve - good numbers the past few years also - comment?

[pathogan]

...Zito was dominating the sox through 5,he had the sweping Lord Charles working, facing the minimum,then, oh them bases on balls,two walks and the bases are loaded,full count, boom, bases clearing double. Me thinks Macha took him out to get him the w as much as getting the win in general..good news for the sox today is ted lilly,not harden nor hudson...

[Tom]

good news for the sox today is ted lilly,not harden nor hudson...

Actually, Mulder is starting tonight. The good news for the sox will have to wait another day. ;-)

[pathogan]

Actually, Mulder is starting tonight. The good news for the sox will have to wait another day. ;-)


Once again Im wrong :rolleyes: :D c`est la vie